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Help me estimate packing volume

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Apneaddict

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2010
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I don't presently have access to a spirometer, but have in the past and have approx 6L lungs.

With a full inhale, I used a 5lb neck weight to be neutral.

I have worked on my packing and with 30 packs require 7.5 lbs to be neutral.

Anyone care to guess how much additional air I might be packing??

I'm thinking 1L or more.
 
From my crude experiments, with a few checks against professionals using good equipment, I'd be willing to bet on 1.1 liters +/- 20%.
 
I suppose a real crude experiment to verify would be for me to use a 7.5 lb neck weight, full inhale (no packing) and a 1L milk jug filled with air around my torso!! LOL

Good to know that your data point aligns with my gut feeling.

This should aid equalization and eliminate squeezes for depth work.

Should aid in dynamic events too.
 
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The easiest way is to inspire at maximum with packing, and exhale completely into a large ballon.Then, inhale the air from balloon, so what remains is packed air,the amount can be measured.
 
Be careful doing heavy packing!! Just saying.

The easiest way is to inspire at maximum with packing, and exhale completely into a large ballon.Then, inhale the air from balloon, so what remains is packed air,the amount can be measured.

Wow, that is simple and brilliant :)

Just to make simple things complicated :) there's probably a slight difference between the amount of air estimated from buoyancy change, and the amount of air packed, since TLC is under slight pressure after packing. I don't know how much at all, probably not a lot as far as I remember from an old thread. However see below.

What is the purpose of estimating it? Air volume in litres?

7,5 lbs - 5 lbs = 2,5 lbs buoyancy change = 1,13 kg wich is equal to 1,13 litre. This is at surface level. Very similar indeed to Bills experience.

At a 2 meter depth measure point (bottom of pool) the difference might equal a slightly bigger volume taken down as far as I can tell, equal to around 0,23 litre change, since both airspaces are slightly compressed, and the difference will the be a little bit smaller: At 2 m air will compress to app. 83 percent. Reversed it show a 1/o,83=1,2 = 20% volume increase taken up to surface... A TLC around 7L, and a TLC-pack at 8,13L (equal 2,5 lbs change) measured at 2 m, would then equal 1,2x7 - 1,2x8,13 = 1,36L (or easier 1,13 x 1,2 = 1,36). So that's a 1,36-1,13 = 0,23 L addition to the calculation trying to adjust for pressure-biased measuring. Still added is totally 1,36 L of packing at surface.

Then you have a factor of packing compression to calculations, say mayby 5 % increase of TLC+pack lung pressure when packing (just a wild guess) at surface: (TLC+pack) x 0,05 = fx 8L x 0,05 = 0,4L that doesn't show in buoyancy change at surface: You got more air, but it doesn't take up more space, it is just under pressure. At 2 m it would suddenly show itself in buoyancy change again I guess, so you can't combine the factors.

On a side note: I just realised that pressure change in lungs does not "start" at packing level, it is something that increases gradually at any inhale above passive-exhale-level. Now this might not make a big difference to the above calculations, but I just realized that "packing" is really something you do with your mouth - a technique - not something that describes a "point of pressure change" in lungs, since they are allready being gradually forced to hold more air/pressure. Full inhale is just the point where your muscles can't force more air in on any given day...

Disclaimer: Not sure calculations are correct, but this is what I came up with :)
 
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Correction - just weighed the newly heavier neck weight and it's 8.2 lbs.

That's approx 1.45L based on the above.

To the above point, I can't pack more than 20 times above water and have to drop down to get the last 10+ in.

Should be great for depth (but I won't use that much weight for that), but won't likely use more then 20 for DYN and DNF due to lack of flexibility / mobility issues at 30 packs in a shallow pool.

I'll have to also experiment with static - might only use 15 packs.
 
Packing is not aiding much at all in deep dives. It may give you a few meters, but then you'll run in the same barrier. Also packing increases narcosis. Also, after a long deep dive, when the blood plasma still is in the lungs (bloodshift), the packed air creates an overpressure in the last meters returning to the surface, which can damage your body.

Be careful with packing, especially in combination with deep diving.

In order to equalise better at depth, flexibility, technique and relaxation will be the ticket.
 
How do you weigh the weights? My 10# neck weight is less than 9 in the water. Just thought that I would add another variable to the equation.
 
I weighed myself out of water without the weight, then out of water with the weight.

There are 16 x .5lb lead weights plus all of the other stuff.

I just filled my sink and put a ball of electrical tape in and it floats...
So it's safe to say that my neck weight is likely 7.x lbs in the water.

Now... Where can I find an underwater scale?? :D
 
Its easier to visit doctor who has spirometer.
I went to sprts doctor last year and payed only 5€ :)
Measures was:
VC 6,7L + packing 0,73L = 7,43L
Im 189cm, slim body.
Plan to also go this year and see what difference has all that training done to my lungs :)
 
Now... Where can I find an underwater scale?? :D

Everywhere :) [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Weston-Pound-Spring-Hook-Scale/dp/B001IHF6GC/ref=sr_1_2?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1364680453&sr=1-2&keywords=spring+scale"]Amazon.com: Weston 20 Pound Spring and Hook Scale: Home & Kitchen@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/314L95iPsxL.@@AMEPARAM@@314L95iPsxL[/ame]

My friend use two of these to measure buoyancy for DYN/DNF streamlining: One around the neck, one around the waist, both attached to something heavy at the bottom (scale is upside down). Then he gets a good reading on how the weight distribution should be for neck and belt (and then adjust a bit because of what is calculated below, I guess add around 10-15%).

What Bill is refering to is probably the displacement of water, wich could make the weight ½-1 kg lighter, depending on size, materials and possible airspace inside (depending on how water tight it is, and if you used lead shots etc.).

But for the above calculation, the difference of displacement for the two different weights used is what could make a difference. Wich as far as I can figure out will take away a little of the difference in buoyancy, pehaps 100-200 gram I would think.

(app. 10% (according to Bills weightloss) off of both weights.
Land difference: 8,2 lbs & 5 lbs
Submerged weight: 0,9x8,2 - 0,9x5 = 7,4 - 4,5 = 2,9 lbs difference instead of 3,2 lbs, that app 0,3 lbs/150 gram. less buoyance change submerged.)
 
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Btw have a look at this thread, some great ideas for measuring lung capacity

http://forums.deeperblue.com/general-freediving/95039-testing-lung-capacity.html

Including my own very simple way, wich showed a 1 litre packing capacity for me:

Great. That is a simple, easy solution, that can be made even more simple :)

I just tried it right now, adjusting it to a normal sink filled with water. I took a 1 litre plastic measuring jug, and my snorkel, a then blew 1 litre out at a time through my snorkel, filling the jug with water again every time.

Can be done in 2 minutes...
 
From what I hear it is rather the reverse - packing will increase the risk of squeeze.

I've read the same many times. Personally I have not seen a convincing explanation, a lot of misconceptions seems to go around, and this area is not well understood, that's my impression any way. But the risk of injury from packing are probably very much present nonetheless, like air embolism from packing & extreme volume at resurfacing because of bloodshift, and I've heard of indications on long-term tissue damage. I guess this is for another (packing) thread though...
 
I agree. I can't understand an increased chance of a lung squeeze at depth due to packing. If anything I'd think that it reduces the chances for a deep lung squeeze or trachea squeeze at depth due to less of a need for a forced mouthfill.

I agree about the other risks, and the resurfacing expansion may be where ppl see the damage done (if you don't exhale in the last 5m) and assume its a deep lung squeeze...
 
If anything I'd think that it [packing] reduces the chances for a deep lung squeeze or trachea squeeze at depth due to less of a need for a forced mouthfill.

In short term, measured over a small range (about 10%), yes.
In long term, going deeper, no. - You'll keep encountering the same barriers.

If you want to go deeper, without squeezes, equalisation problems, you'll need to practice more, and become more flexible.
 
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