HELP!!! Need the final hint to do Mouthfill (or Frenzel upside-down)

[Divenick]

Hey everybody!
I am desperately looking for the -what I hope will be- final hint for the folowing problem:

I went through Eric Fattahs Manual. I went through all the exercices you can find in the internet. I can frenzel, I can hold a mouthfill, I can do both BUT I don´t seem to be able to combine those two techniques when diving in a head-down posotion... I am playing around with the tongue-position but on deeper dives sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn´t. Can´t rally figure out what the problem is. I do have air in my mouth, but I am not able to frenzel properly with this air. It´s there, but useless. I have tried EVERY tongue position...and it starts to really piss me off
So as I keep on hitting the wall around 45 meters on cw-dives I certainly want to learn to do the frenzel-mouthfill-upside down. Any Ideas? Any tips and tricks?
You´d really make me happy!!!!

Cheers!

Divenick

 

[picasso]

hi,

it souds that you have soft palate closed (in the wrong position so the air can't go through your nose airwais) so the air can't flow to equalise. If you close it, you press your tong and you can't equalise. The air can go just back to your lungs, which you don't want. Try practicing excercising to control your soft palate :head.

 

[Simos]

Disclaimer: I don't use mouthfill but just an idea...

Might be worth practicing FRC down to say 10m and mouthfilling from the surface (and using only the mouthfill to equalise obviously). At least you'll be able to practice lots (which you can't do as easily with 45m dives)

All the usual warnings about FRC dives of course apply (pressure on lungs, easier to BO etc) so take it easy if you haven't tried FRC before...

 

[Bill]

I have spent the last two years going through something similar and have two things for you to try.
On the surface, inhale less than max, face in the water, fill mouth and slowly pull down to 10 meters, making sure that you clear by only use the air in the mouth. Repeat until it is very easy.
Now go back to your normal method of mouth fill but just before you clear your ears, put a little air in your mask with the tongue. Don't worry about spilling some air or depth until the 'two step' clear becomes easy. FRC diving will allow more attempts and remove the 'target depth monkey' from your back.
I like to dive, no packing, to 5 meters and exhale 25% of the air. This keeps max depth to about 30 meters, just out of sight of surface safety for 20 seconds or so.

 

[Divenick]

Thanks everybody!!! Thanks!!!
I do practise FRC-dives for quite a while. I really love FRC- Diving.... I have gone as far as 28m on FRC. There´s the magic wall again. No more equalisation possible...
With a good mouthfill 1-2 m beyond the surface I manage to dive to around 20m on a good day. The thing is, as long as I have air in my lungs, it´s all going well. When I reach RV it seems that I re-connect epiglottis and soft palate. :headSO to me it seems as if the pressure in my lungs helps me to control the epiglottis. as soon as this pressure is getting less I fuck it up...
One more thing I can add: On the first 20-25 meters (just before the mouthfill) I do the frenzel with really a little air in my mouth. With the mouthfill it fells like I have to do a "different" frenzel technique and the bigger the mouthfill is the more difficult the frenzel is...
O man...beer to everybody on the day I drop to 50m without pain in my ears:friday

 

[picasso]

One more thing I can add: On the first 20-25 meters (just before the mouthfill) I do the frenzel with really a little air in my mouth. With the mouthfill it fells like I have to do a "different" frenzel technique and the bigger the mouthfill is the more difficult the frenzel is...
O man...beer to everybody on the day I drop to 50m without pain in my ears:friday

good job . I had simmilar problems and sometimes still do at about 70+ depth depending on the period.

It helped me to have more air in my mouth so when I reach the depth for mouth fill I just add some air in my already almost full mouth and close epiglotis or again I refill after some meters but it is risky that you loss more air than you add .

 

[Simos]

Thanks everybody!!! Thanks!!!
I do practise FRC-dives for quite a while. I really love FRC- Diving.... I have gone as far as 28m on FRC. There´s the magic wall again. No more equalisation possible...
With a good mouthfill 1-2 m beyond the surface I manage to dive to around 20m on a good day. The thing is, as long as I have air in my lungs, it´s all going well. When I reach RV it seems that I re-connect epiglottis and soft palate. :headSO to me it seems as if the pressure in my lungs helps me to control the epiglottis. as soon as this pressure is getting less I fuck it up...
One more thing I can add: On the first 20-25 meters (just before the mouthfill) I do the frenzel with really a little air in my mouth. With the mouthfill it fells like I have to do a "different" frenzel technique and the bigger the mouthfill is the more difficult the frenzel is...
O man...beer to everybody on the day I drop to 50m without pain in my ears:friday

Are you sure that before reaching RV you have the epiglottis closed and you frenzel only using the air in the mouth? Sounds a bit like you haven't decoupled epiglottis from soft palate - what might be happening before RV is that whenever you open the soft palate you also open the epiglottis but because you have air in your lungs you maintain pressure so your mouth is still full...

Once you reach RV you are possibly more aware that opening your epiglottis will result in losing the air in your mouth so you switch to keeping the epiglottis closed but as a result the soft palate now stays closed too...

If you cannot equalise on FRC with a mouthfil from the surface I would think that you just need to work more on decoupling epiglottis-soft palate and that this problem doesn't have to do with reaching RV (just becomes obvious at RV)....


The other possibility is what you said ie that the size of the mouthfil makes the difference - in fact I'm trying it right now and it is more difficult. Do you keep your tongue touching the roof of your mouth when frenzeling? (is that a word? Lol) with a big mouthfil it doesn't feel as if this is possible...

Just some thoughts (I am no expert)

 

[azapa]

there are, for me, and others I have spoken too, two different mouth-fill stages:
1. shallower - full of air to bursting - impossible or hard to do tongue piston (Frenzel) - need to use cheek pressure to get air to ears
2. deeper - cheeks smaller, tongue piston works fine.

The huge problem I have "slipping" between the two stages (about 45m) is that I loose some air back to the lungs in between.

More practise, I am sure, is needed

 

[picasso]

i also perceive theese two stages ;-)

 

[Divenick]

Right. Thanks for all the replies!!!! After a sleepless night: I will work it all over. again and again. I´ll do the balloon, the Cheeksqueeze, I´ll do ahatever it takes. I will ask my Doc to decouple my epiglottis and my soft palate as the problem seems to be there even if it´s not. Then I will go to my favourite lake and drop to the bottom. If I manage to equalize beyond 40 meters I´ll go and buy beer which you can pick up in Dahab where I´ll be spending wintertime. If I mess up I´ll be back here and ask for even more help. So be ready...

Thanks,

Leif

 

[Jouskari]

I didn´t read so carefully, but do you ever feel like you have air in you mouth but can´t get it to your ears?

I usually do a mouthfill at 20 m, keep the air in the cheeks until about at 40, after that I let the air transfer to the back onto the tongue and do normal frenzel. Before I didn´t even realize that I still had air in the mouth and was stuck at 40 m... when I finally got it right I´m now down to 60 m.

-J

 

[Divenick]

THIS is something I had in mind but never tried as I thought it´s not gonna work.... For sure worth a try! I´ll go for it tomorrow!!!Cheers!!!

 

[Divenick]

Been to 38m on FRC today. After wasting tons of balloons in the past 24 hours I now do really feel a big difference when it comes to control epiglottis and soft pallate separately. Seems like you were right, Simos. Thanks!
Two additional changes I made that might be helpful to anybody with similar problems: I added weight so I am now neutral somewhere around 12-14 m insteae of 18-20 before so I start freefalling much earlier and a lot more relaxed what makes it much easier to focus on equalisation. in fact the freefall today was the coolest freefall ever to me... From 15-38 meters. even missed the bottom plate and did an easy frenzel on 38 meters. what a difference...!! Big grin on the way back up though contractions were really remarkable...

Still a long way to go but it seems that I took a big step today... Thanks everybody, really all of your replies were part of what happened today!!!
:friday

Leif

 

[Simos]

38m FRC! Well done Leif, great dive!

PS Will book a flight to Dahab now to get that free beer you promised to everyone! Lol

 

[Divenick]

Stella or Sakkara? I´ll be there from Dec 9th to Feb 2nd. Buddies very welcome! My range I can offer safety to has recently increased a tiny bit rofl
Can´t wait...!

 

[Spearo_the_Hero]

I didn´t read so carefully, but do you ever feel like you have air in you mouth but can´t get it to your ears?

I usually do a mouthfill at 20 m, keep the air in the cheeks until about at 40, after that I let the air transfer to the back onto the tongue and do normal frenzel. Before I didn´t even realize that I still had air in the mouth and was stuck at 40 m... when I finally got it right I´m now down to 60 m.

-J

This is a nice mention on getting it to the ears. I've only recently begun doing frc as a regular practice now with mouthfil from the surface. Usually at about 15M i can't get air to my ears without doing something strange...i'm not sure what it is but there is air in my mouth but at 15M i need to --i think--move the air as far down my throat as possible and then push the air back up...maybe I do a reverse pack also to get an extra suction and this can take me to 21M with mouthfil from the surface. I'm still trying to figure out what is going on and why there is no automatic equalization after 15M with mouthfil and still using trying to blow out my sinus'. When I have done a proper fulllungs deep dive all i did was take a mouthfil at 20m and hold it by just putting constant pressure on my sinuses took me to 65m with room to spare.

Been to 38m on FRC today. After wasting tons of balloons in the past 24 hours I now do really feel a big difference when it comes to control epiglottis and soft pallate separately. Seems like you were right, Simos. Thanks!
Two additional changes I made that might be helpful to anybody with similar problems: I added weight so I am now neutral somewhere around 12-14 m insteae of 18-20 before so I start freefalling much earlier and a lot more relaxed what makes it much easier to focus on equalisation. in fact the freefall today was the coolest freefall ever to me... From 15-38 meters. even missed the bottom plate and did an easy frenzel on 38 meters. what a difference...!! Big grin on the way back up though contractions were really remarkable...

Still a long way to go but it seems that I took a big step today... Thanks everybody, really all of your replies were part of what happened today!!!
:friday

Leif

nice frc to 38M...at what depth did you do the mouthfil? IF you did the mouthfil from the surface then you are able to kepp 4.8 ATMs of pressure in your mouth so if you do your mouthfil at 3 ATM (20m) then theoretically you can go down 4.8 x 3 = 14.4 ATM or 134M ! What are you waiting for ..you are ready for max dive attempts today.

 

[Divenick]

134m...rofl
I am MILES away from anything like this. I did the mouthfill at around 15m. Still enough space to me. Will try the whole thing with full lungs soon. Now the wall at 42 meters seems pretty much gone. Time for something new:blackeye

 

[cebaztian]

Might be helpfull:
The mouthfill - how to equalize deep in freediving

Sebastian

 

[Divenick]

Excellent article! There´s always things left to learn. a lot in this case!
Thanks Sebastian!!!

 

[efattah]

Might be helpfull:
The mouthfill - how to equalize deep in freediving

Sebastian

Nice article but you should correct the link to liquivision.com, not liquivision.net (which doesn't exist...!)