Help to Choose the speargun

[Murat]

Hi all;

I am new diver and i need some help. Last year i bought OMER 30/86 gun (Green barrel one) I like it but i want to buy a new gun
which is more accurate powrtfull and has an longer range. Actually i live in Cyprus which is an island in mediterenian and i generally shoot small fishes around 1-2 lbs but there is big fishes such as Groupers and Amberjacks and the guy shoot 308 lbs Tuna the month before it is rumor but i belive it since he is the best diver in here he can dive up to 35-40 meters. I know i dont deserve to buy the second gun yet but anyway i will buy one. Here is the options:

1- Riffe MT #3 with three power bands
2-Omer Aluminnium 96 cm with two 16mm or one 18 mm
3-Omer Master Competition 96cm with 20mm power band
4-Totemsub Tahiti 95 with two 16 mm powerband

I found lots of information about these guns but i just wanted to know your experiance with thesse guns. Any information will be appriciate.

Is there any diver who uses ICQ?

 

[Murat]

Come on boys i need help ! ! !

 

[Dogmatrix]

G'day Murat how are you? Firstly I am not the most experianced spearo as many here can contest... but I think you need to add a little more infomation... you imply you could be shooting anything from a 1/2 pound fish to grouper to Tuna... thats one heck of an ask for any speargun... from the sound of things you are mostly getting the 1/2 pound fish but you would like to have a bit more power and range when you see those grouper... I am going to take it your grouper probly max out around 50 pound or so? (our max out a tad more then that with a fish over 3 meters long
Are you after a european style gun or something like the Riffe... a lot of people like the Riffes due to the modifications they can safely do... If you want to have something for the larger fish i would have thought you would be considering something around 1 meter as your base weapon... (ummm Andersn, IYA, or Icarus... feel free to shoot me down in flames right here...).
a lot of good publicity has been headed towards the rob allen railguns they have a rail that will help guide your shaft keeping making it quite accurate... and also allowing a reasonable amount of power to be used... have a look at the site www.roballen.co.za and perhaps you will find what you are looking for...

it would be helpful if you posted the range you were after and the $$ your willing to spend... it would let the more experianced guys/girls (not me) know what your limits are...

bit oof food for thought anyhow, good luck!

 

[Murat]

Thank you dogmatrix for your reply. My budget for speargun is 300-350 bucks. I almost know every speargun on the net. I dont think about RA because there is no dealer of them and it will cost me too much to get it with shipping.Another thing is that as i read they cost too much pain to load and the smallest size is 110 which is too big for me and these small mediterenian fishes.I mean i dont want to buy that big speargun beacuse it does not deserve to carry it and load it many times to shoot these small fishes. Because of that i am looking for a gun which is more flexible. I mean my gun must able to shoot from 1-2 lbs fishes up to great amberjacks and groupers without any sacrifice from manuverability, accuracy,power and so on.My solution is that: Use one 16mm power band with 6.35 mm shaft then when i am ready to shoot greater fishes use two 16mm power bands and 7 mm shaft. My options are:

1- Riffe MT #3 with three power bands
2-Omer Aluminnium 96 cm with two 16mm or one 18 mm
3-Omer Master Competition 96cm with 20mm power band
4-Totemsub Tahiti 95 with two 16 mm powerband
5-OMER Black Master 96

But i thing i am between 2-3-4. I saw a guy who shoot Yellowfin Tuna with OMER Alluminum probably the same guy who Scott Turgeon talked about. He used two 16mm power band and the question is this. Can this gun handle that 7mm or thicker spear shaft with two 16mm powrband with its thiner carbon barrel. In my opinion there will be lots of kick up on the gun since the gun using one 16mm powerband and 6.3mm spear shaft originally
This mean loosing of accuracy. Am i right? But if am not it will be a great for me to get this gun beacause it can shoot both situation with no problem.

Second serious option is Master Competition. In my opinion it is more accurate than Alluminium because of its barrel shape and may be it will not have any difficulties to handle 7mm shaft with two 16mm power band.By the way will be there a much problem if i use two 16mm power band with 6.35mm shaft?

Third option is Totemsub Tahiti 95 or 100 with two 16mm power band but the thing is that it is little bit thicker than these guns.I know this means less kick up so more accurate but it will sacrifice the manuverability. It is so important for me because these small fishes really swim fast.The good things about it are it has teak stock, rail, come with 45m line and reel for just 270 euro of coure with out shipping

Actually i am not very serious about riffe coz if i will buy a riffe i absolutely want mid handle but the teak ones are very exensive.
And if i will buy MT i will wait until the enclosed track one arrive.

And Black Master; i talked with Mark Labaocetta sorry if i spelled wrong. He said that OMER doesn`t produce Black Master anymore i don`t know any of you know why, but we have them in our local dealers. I saw one. it has great barrel with side support or wings but I dont know if it can use two 16mm power band with 7mm but if it can it will certainly can handle that with this barrel shape.

Waiting for all of yours comment

 

[icarus pacific]

OK...OK.

You're looking for one gun to do everything and that's a tough bill to fill.

I'm this place's greatest fan of things Riffe, but you may want to look at a euro style gun for what you're doing and your experience. (Man, am I going to hear about this one...) That said, take a look at Deeper Blue's section of DiveInn, click on the shopping thing at the strt page here, and cruise around and see what there is to see. An OMER, Sporasub or a Picasso of 110 cm or so will let you get some dinner and some frustration of fairly equal levels. Don't sweat a reel, or a compact sonar for the things...just concentrate on the interchangability of the rubbers, 16 or 20 mm, the shaft diameter and the tips available for it.

There's a couple of clowns here that like these style guns and swear up and down about them... Whatever. But going to a Riffe, especially a beauty like the MT#3 is going to give you some frustration before it gives you a meal.

BTW... check out www.ebay.com for deals too. there's an outfit selling Riffe Competitor 2XS's for cost and you could learn a bit on that gun for a loooong time.

sven

 

[Murat]

Thanks icarus pacific for your reply.Can you talk about more what kind of frustrations?
Can you tell me more about MT 3 if you hace some experiance with it?. What is the accuracy of this gun with 9/32 shaft and three 9/16 bands? I talked with jay riffe he said it is good but i want to know how much good? Is it as good as OMER eouroguns or better?. A month ago i shoot a small fish from 2 meter away from the tip of my speargun and i hit it. (the size of the fish was 2 inches ant it was swimming )

 

[icarus pacific]

so you shot a 2" fish...

The Riffe MT3 is an absolutely great tool, and I say that as I have had two of them. They're about as close to an ideal all around gun as you're going to get. The shaft diameters and bands that will fit it, especially with the new muzzle that will accomodate four bands, and that it will accept a reel, make it a real cannon or a great general purpose bazooka. The quiet of it launching a shaft is a real treat. It's my favorite halibut gun, loaded with a 3/8" shaft and 5/8" rubbers.

It's as accurate as you want to be, and like all guns will require some practice as to leading the fish,accounting for shaft and tip weight, yadda-yadda...

The euro style guns are much lighter and smaller in profile, making them very quick and manueverable- nice things on a reef or rocky bottom. You'll hear all sorts of people telling you that they're legitimate open water guns too and that they'll lob a shaft at tuna and such, but after it's all said and done, the shafts are history and all, so... As I said earlier, looking for one gun to do it all is a tough one. While I certainly endorse the Metal Techs and Riffe Mid Handles in particular, you're going to need to really look at the kind of diving you're doing, what the skill level is versus yours, what the prey is and then make an educated choice based on a genuine need. Then go see if it's available in your area and if there are spare parts around for it.

That said, developing your aim on a two inch fish from whatever distance is no way to endear yourself to anyone that knows anything about legitimate spearfishing. That's just a waste of a natural resource. Unless the fish is a listed nuisance or trash fish identified by the local agency(s), there's no need to stick a piece of stainless through it. Go practice on a piece of netting or a submerged float.

sven

 

[Murat]

Dear icarus pacific

I know shooting 2 inches fish sounds bad but it is absolutly junk fish and we have thousands of them here. But if u will fell better i will not shoot them again. Every creature has right to live.

 

[Iyadiver]

Hi Murat,

If you spend enough time reading this forum, there are a few threads which discussed guns in great details, it might help you. Surf around.

Of all the guns you listed I am only familiar with Riffe, but unfortunately I have not shot a Metal Tech before but a friend of mine has a Metal Tech #3, it is still a virgin so even him have not has the chance to shoot it. Damn its been a month already !!! However I can comment something about its construction because I study it thorougly. I do own two Riffes both are teak ones. Since I am impressed with a Metal Tech I ordered one MT #0, it was supposed to be in my hand last week but some shit happened to it...somewhere and I don't want to talk about it.

As our Sultan ( Icarus ) have explained on the better points of a Metal Tech #3, I would want to explain further. Your gun list number 2-5 is not exactly something you can compare to a Riffe because the concept of the design is different and so are the pricing. Riffe Metal Tech was actually introduced to allow cheaper retail price compared to the teak models ( The Riffe Competitor Series- Teak is not that expensive ). Since teak wood come from trees, prices should increase every year because there are less tree to chop. Metal Tech is made from aluminum, therefore it can be made for a decent price because mass production can help pricing down.

Jay Riffe is a perfectionist ( boy, I said this twice already ) and he is also a world-class hunter, everthing he design and manufacture has always been over built. Why, because he knows that you and I will one day want to put as much power as possible in our guns because we want to pursue bigger fish or want to shoot a stealthy fish from far away, this is part of a spearo routine "growing up".

In terms of construction all the other guns you mentioned are not worthy to compare to Riffe Metal Tech ( except Totemsub, cause I never seen one ). For those who has play enough with guns, we can tell a solid built from an average built. If a Metal Tech is a Mercedes 600, the rest is like say a Honda Accord. All serve the purpose as a speargun, you can hunt with them but the feel and built is different.

Jay Riffe built guns the opposite way to all European guns. Since JayRiffe and all of the previous and current world class hunters are mainly after the big tunas , his designs , especially the trigger and the muzzle design has been focused more for big fishes, meaning for big power. All of his guns uses the same trigger mechanism. All the small Riffe guns are just scales down Riffes. His pride and joy is the Island and the Inertia Blue Water.

European guns on the other hand was design initially for small fishes and later people demand more power and thus more bands are installed. Trigger mechanism is the heart of any speargun, it is also the most difficult piece of engineering in a gun, I mean if you talk of something capable of 600 pounds or more of rubber pressure. If you look at how a trigger lock a shaft, you will know how critical a good design is.

I am not saying you can't shoot big fishes with a small 6.5mm shaft Euro gun, many people have had good success but do you know how close are the shots made, do you think there are such opportunity for every hunter, do you think we dive the same rich fish area ? A small 6.5mm shaft with a single flopper has very good penetration because it is thin and slimline. This is the only advantage I see of a Euro gun. Everything of it is small and thus very fast to swing in the water. If a 30kg fish always maintain 5 meter distance from your speartip, I bet you won't be able to nail any with Euro guns, unless some very rare model.

Simple obeservation should be made. The power source of all the speargun you mentioned is the rubber band. Therefore the more rubber the gun can take and of course its trigger too, the more power potential it has...simple. Unfortunately, not all guns are created equal in the trigger, muzzle and barrel strength area. Yes, there is a limit to what kind of power you can put on a gun before recoil and shaft whip come to play. For the Metal Tech #3 with 3/8 (9.5mm ) shaft, it can be powered all the way to 440 pounds of rubber pressure ( 5/8 x 4 bands ) if you get the new aluminum muzzle, a basic muzzle can handle 340 pounds or 4 x 9/16 rubbers. Anything above 340 pounds of rubber pressure, a two hand shot is a must...... for me. This is also the proper method of shooting a mid handle gun, regardless of power. The more hands u placed on the gun, the better the aim is.

If you are saying that you want to a gun that can grow with your needs, I think the Riffe Metal Tech is the only way to go if only one gun is the criteria. You can always go for Mt #2, instead of #3. Shorter swing faster. The Riffe Metal Tech will come with the enclosed track soon and I heard the enclosed track module can come as a kit, this mean 1 gun can be used with 2 enclosed track, one for 7mm shaft and the other for 8mm shaft..... as required. All you need is to buy extra enclosed tracks, buy the gun in the standard open track, buy 2 shafts, one of 7mm and one of 9.5mm. The 8mm comes as standard. There is no other gun I know of that can be this flexible.

As for your listed Euro guns, if it comes with 2 bands/rubber, that will be the way you are going to have it for the rest of its service life. Why, cause 2 bands of 16mm is about all the maximum power a 7mm shaft can handle.

Another simple point to observe is that, if something which retails supposedly "expensive" ( Riffe ) can sell so well, there is only one reason.... it is worth the money and it is a good product. Remember a speargun is not a fashion goods, quality and function is the selling point.

If I were to point out honestly, European make many fine cars , unlike many American brands but as for a speargun...... American Riffe is a good choice.

Don't worry I am a neutral person, not European not American.


Have Fun,
IYA

 

[Iyadiver]

Accuracy Issue

Hi Murat,

Since u mentioned a 2 inch fish as a based for ur accuracy test for a gun that u think is accurate enough, I am going to show you something similiar for ur reference. The 2 photos I am going to attach might disgust some people but since I shot those fishes specificaly to eat, I do not feel any guilt. Also to note that these rainbow runners on the photos are about 40 cm (16") long and and 9 cm/3.0" high(wide). This is the average "very decent" size for this species that I will encounter in my water, so please do not flame me boys for shooting something u guys think are too small. :naughty

These fishes are taken close to one of the navigation buoy (float ). They usually roam around in 15 feeet/5 meters to 30 feet/10 meters of water depth. They will come in numbers and swim under me for a few seconds. This fish in my waters do not stay still 4 us to shoot. They come and go. If I spot them like 4 times in 30 minutes, I feel I am lucky enough. My water visisbility is usualy no better than 20 feet ( 6 meters ). I am happy with what my water has to offer and I try my best to take take sea food out of it. If I look at foreign books, I read that Rainbow Runners in certain part of the world can grow to 4 kg or more, I realy feel envious and it sure sounds like a dream.

I shot these fishes with my 124cm Riffe Standard #2, using 8mm Hawaiian shaft and 3 x 9/16 bands. The Metal Tech #3 is very similiar is length ( 127cm ) but it is more of a mid handle and must be a faster swinging gun. Why I used 3 bands is because I like fast shooting shafts. I am a lousy stalker on breath hold and I shoot as far away as my gun permits, if I wait too long to shoot, I probably will faint from holding my breath too long. More often I have 2 chase a fish instead of waiting.

I just got it on Saturday afternoon for my own eating and if u see that they are ice frozen, they been on my fridge for the past 8 hours, after my return trip, Sunday afternoon. Now its 02:30AM Monday my time, my usual sleep late habit. I shot a total of 5 fishes in about 2.5 hours of floating, I ate 3 at the island and now I have 2 to bring home. I love eating them.

The reason I am showing you these fishes shot is for a simple reason, I want to show you that a even a lousy hunter like myself can benefit from an accurate but powerful Riffe. All my shots are taken from at least 3 meters away ( 10 feet ) or further, I can't get too close to this over exploited fish ( in my water ).

The first photo u will see below is a shoulder shot. I was higher than the fish cause I can't realy go deep on breath hold. The shot made was from the left of the fish on the shoulder to the middle of it spine on the right side. I was using a 400 lbs mono.

The second shot was made from right to left of the fish. It was a tail shot because it was running away the moment I tried getting close, since with 3 x 9/16 bands I have a good range, I managed to get the tail even when I aimed at mid body.

U must understand that any good speargun is accurate horizontal wise, left/right impact. A vertical shot ( up/down ) is how u practice because the law of gravity come in to play.

I don't know if other people find Rainbow Runners on the run being an easy shot, to me it is quite challenging. If a gun I use can track and shoot this small 40 cm fish, I think it deserve to be considered "decent-tracking" and accurate enough.

Please don't mind the clear plastic I used to cover the fish on the photo, it is not a photo but I scanned the frozen fish on my scanner.... ha ha ha :duh

If I can go thru all the trouble teasing the forum readers on the Riffe-Omer tournament "rumoured' prizes, I don't mind showing a friend from Cyprus some photos if it might hel you.

 

[Iyadiver]

Photo No 1 - Rainbow Runner

Left to right shot.......

 

[Iyadiver]

Photo 2 - Rainbow Runner

Right to left shot........

OK.... I am a little crazy.... maybe... ,
At least I shoot to eat ........

 

[Murat]

Dear Iya;

Thanks for ur reply. Probably u must spend too much time to write these things so thanks again.
But there is something that you didn`t get very well.
First of all the size of the fish that i shoot is 2 inches tall not wide (high) and it was swiming while i shoot it. Can you understand what accuracy i am talking about

And the guns. If i found a rainbow like this in these waters i will pray the god 3 times a day . Now you can understand why i want more accurate and manuverable gun. To be honest the fishes around here too small so they dont deserve Riffe but its a passion to buy Riffe you know. I think if i buy riffe it wont be usefull for me now. But the thing is may be there is a biger fishes in deeper waters this is why i want to give chance to Riffe since i have one euro gun also. But the another hell thing is the price. Riffe MT#3S is 450 dollar here and if i buy hawaian shaft for these little fishes it will reach up to 500 and If i decide to buy MT i will certainly wait for the enclosed track.God knows what will be the price.By the way i can dive up to 20 feet maximum :waterwork.Very embarrasing. But i am very new.:duh My opinion about this riffe issue i can buy Riffe Mt#3 with three band and hawaian shaft it will cost me about 400 $.Then i will buy 5/16 shaft when i become experianced diver to shoot and find big fishes.I know there is big AJ and Groupers but i din`t meet yet

Another doubt about Riffe MT#3 is manuverability. In my opinion it more manuverable than euros since it is mid handle and you can use two hand but it has thick stock you know.What is your opinion about this? If i can collect the whole money to buy MT can i hit these small fishes with this teak stock and certain amount of kick up? or i will waste my money and use the old euro gun again?

Some peoples says that deserve it than buy it and someones says buy it than deserve it

To be honest the fishes that i shoot here is about 5 to 6 inches. God damn so embarrasing :waterwork . But i know the guys who able to shoot big fishes at deeper.This is the interesting thing about Mediterenian you can find fish to shoot from 2 inches to 400 lbs

Waiting for replies thanks to all ICQ # 159643052

 

[Murat]

sorry for wrong spell it is too late here and i have an Calculus axam tomorow.

Another doubt about Riffe MT#3 is manuverability. In my opinion it more manuverable than euros since it is mid handle and you can use two hand but it has thick stock you know.What is your opinion about this? If i can collect the whole money to buy MT can i hit these small fishes with this thick stock and certain amount of kick up? or i will waste my money and use the old euro gun again?

 

[Lou]

Hi Murat,

I've just seen your posts about choosing a gun, and in my opinion the euro guns have evolved to be what they are because thats the best type of gun for our waters where as riffe have done the same for the different waters/species of fish in the americas - I know they are excellent guns (don't flame me sven!) but I think for these waters and fish and your money a euro would suit you better.

I use an escaplez concept camoflage 90cm gun with a 130cm spear and 16mm bands for the average hunt and if I think I'm feeling lucky I put on 20mm bands and mount a reel on.
To be honest the basic 16mm bands are find for fish upto and over 10 pounds and mounting the 20mm and reel would be fine up a fish that would make you stain your suit!


If you want to try out my gun drop us a line, I just think that you need to learn on cheaper gear until you are sure of your hunting style and needs before spending 500 quid!
As I said you're welcome to try out my gun,
dive safe,

 

[Murat]

Hi Lou;

U are absolutly right but the thing is that i have OMER MB30/86 86 cm speargun with 20mm power band and reel on it it fine. In my opinion if i can collect the hole money for Riffe MT #3 and if i buy it i will use it with 7mm hawaian shaft with two or three 14mm bands. In other words i will use it as a euro gun then when i ready to shoot bigger fishes i will upgrade it. You know there are also big fishes in Mediterenian. I know some guys who can catch up to 220 to 400 pound fish in a day. Of course it is a very rare. Another great thing about it is MId-Handle that means you (and me) can track thesse small fishes more easily. You may say it has a thicker stock but since you hold it with two hands one from middle one from bottom i think it will great. But not sure %100. By the way where do you live?. Have you got any information or experiance with the guns that i mentioned before?
One more thing what kind of fishes do you shoot usually and what size?
Thanks for you Care

 

[icarus pacific]

My thoughts exactly, Lou.
Welcomr to the fold.

sven

 

[Iyadiver]

Hi Murat,

I don't know how much more accurate you expect for a gun that shoots 3 x 9/16 (14mm ) bands. Take a look at the second photo. The hole there was made by a 8mm shaft on the fish tail. If you use that hole size as a reference, the tail area of the fish is not more than 4-5 cm (+- 2" ) tall and the fish was swimming too. The only other more accurate gun I ever tried was the pneumatic but not so much power.

The only other fish which is close to 2" x 2" in size is called Sergeant Major in my place. The stripe colour of the fish resemble a military uniform ranking code. It is a reef decoration fish, no eating this one.

This rainbow runner is about the smallest size of fish I shoot for good eating cause the other small size good eating species is only like 6" ( 15cm ) long and 1.5" ( 3-4cm ) tall and 1 cm thick, not worth loading rubbers for them. The amount of meat I get is not equivalent to the amount of energy I spend loading the gun. I shoot them with my wallet....much more effective and never miss.

Riffe Metal Tech is much heavier than any Euro gun because the construction is very-very solid. You can shoot with 2 x 9/16 bands on the MT3 if u use 7mm shaft, there won't be any significant recoil......for me. Even being a mid-handle a 127cm MT3 can not swing as fast as a 130cm Euro gun because Euro gun is very-very light. MT3 has more overall volume than a same size European.
We know Archimedes principle of buoyancy, a heavy gun need bigger overall volume to be able to stay "decently neutral" in water, more volume means more drag when u swing.

However MT3 has all the growth potential you will ever need but might not be the best gun for you for the time being. I am more concern over the initial request that you need a gun that can do A-Z, since MT3 is on your list, so I lean to it.

I hope you have luck in finding a suitable gun, but If I hear that you have fishes above 50 pounds in the MED......yum..yum...you may need big power some day.

Have Fun Huntin'
IYA

 

[Murat]

Dear IYA;


The fishes that i find and shoot at here is not big. They are always less than the 2-3 lbs except grupers and AJ but u must be very lucky if see one at a one month 30 days dive. As i said before there is a range between 2lbs to 400 lbs in Mediterenian.If you want to find big fish you must have boat, very developed diving skill and some luck of course.If i have 50+ lbs fishes in my diving area then i buy the Riffe Blue Water with wing kits and pay 1500 $.I wish to have but i there isn`t any fish near to this size in my area.But one day i will be able to shoot big fishes.

 

[Murat]

Here is the another option that fits my spearfishing conditions:

OMER Alluminium 100 with two 16mm power band and Riffe 6.75 mm hawaian euro shaft.

Is this combination works well together or two 16mm power bands is much more for the 6.75mm shaft?

If i use two 16mm power bands on Riffe Euro shaft or OMER 7mm shaft will i lose accuracy since the stock of the barrel is very thin and light weight?

I think if Scott Turgeon reads that he would like to answer since he and his friend who shoot 130 lbs Tuna are using OMER Aluminium.