If i plan on doing a max breath hold (dry of course) till the point of blacking out would it be 1. benificial at all 2. safe. Also i want to attempt to push myself till blacking out just to know were my limit is and that i have the focus to be able to do it. And because i feel as if im not pushing myself nearly as hard as i should be
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Holding till blackout
- Thread starterclavin2828
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
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Hi clavin2828 - in my opinion not only it won't be beneficial but it will be detrimental. You will gain nothing and if you do it repeatedly, your body might even 'learn' to BO as a result of breatholding. You will not for sure find out about your limit, because there is no such thing - Freediving is all about relaxation, so you could for example BO at 3mins today but if you train and learn to be relaxed etc this 'limit' will be much longer. But if you start pushing to BO, all you will do is either have a mental block at 3 mins and not improve beyond that or even train your body to BO around there.
As to whether it's safe: for sure starving your brain of oxygen until it has to shut down your body is an emergency situation for the body, so it doesn't come without risks. Assuming you are lying on something soft you might not hurt yourself but I have seen cases where people didn't come round easily, they went into convulsions and we had to try and 'make' them come round (don't know if they would by themselves, probably). When your body is oxygen-starved and your lying there unconscious convulsing etc there are of course all sorts of things that could happen like your tongue blocking your airways etc.
You really need to see Freediving and breathholding differently: you really don't need to push especially if you are just starting in order to progress and hold your breath for longer. You need to train and learn to relax, not focus on the length of the breathold but on the sensation. Your body will adapt and you will be able to tolerate much higher CO2 without feeling the urge to breath so you will remain relaxed throughout the hold and use as little O2 as possible. My breatholds now are a lot longer than they were when I first started but I am actually more relaxed and comfortable while doing them than I was on day 1. There is really no need to 'push' your body like that, just train often and focus on being a bit more relaxed each time and the numbers will come. I would advise to get into the habit of ending your breatholds while you are still relaxed and as soon as you start getting tense and can't relax anymore. You want to be extending the relaxed part of your dive and training on learning how to relax through the various stages/thoughts/sensations and not how to push through the last few seconds before BO. If you are say really tense and 30 seconds from BO, even if you train at pushing your body to BO you'll only be extending your time by 30secs whereas by proper training and relaxation there is no reason why you couldn't add minutes to your holds
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As to whether it's safe: for sure starving your brain of oxygen until it has to shut down your body is an emergency situation for the body, so it doesn't come without risks. Assuming you are lying on something soft you might not hurt yourself but I have seen cases where people didn't come round easily, they went into convulsions and we had to try and 'make' them come round (don't know if they would by themselves, probably). When your body is oxygen-starved and your lying there unconscious convulsing etc there are of course all sorts of things that could happen like your tongue blocking your airways etc.
You really need to see Freediving and breathholding differently: you really don't need to push especially if you are just starting in order to progress and hold your breath for longer. You need to train and learn to relax, not focus on the length of the breathold but on the sensation. Your body will adapt and you will be able to tolerate much higher CO2 without feeling the urge to breath so you will remain relaxed throughout the hold and use as little O2 as possible. My breatholds now are a lot longer than they were when I first started but I am actually more relaxed and comfortable while doing them than I was on day 1. There is really no need to 'push' your body like that, just train often and focus on being a bit more relaxed each time and the numbers will come. I would advise to get into the habit of ending your breatholds while you are still relaxed and as soon as you start getting tense and can't relax anymore. You want to be extending the relaxed part of your dive and training on learning how to relax through the various stages/thoughts/sensations and not how to push through the last few seconds before BO. If you are say really tense and 30 seconds from BO, even if you train at pushing your body to BO you'll only be extending your time by 30secs whereas by proper training and relaxation there is no reason why you couldn't add minutes to your holds
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The above advice is golden and I would strongly advise following it. Pushing to the point of BO will not help you develop you ability to breath hold. What it will do is make you more likely to black out on a regular basis. We have seen this many times... people who black out on many of their dives. Its ugly and in my books these people don't fit into the category of good freedivers. Their dives don't get noticeably longer but the BO's become consistent. You don't want to be one of those guy. Train smart and progress at a reasonable pace, and try and avoid black outs, don't train to get one. With proper training you will increase your static times and enjoy the process. One last point, don't train alone, find a buddy and train with them.
All the best
Dean
All the best
Dean
i just meant go as far as possible even if i dont want to and possibly till blackout on 1 hold just to gauge where my absolute limit is at that moment so if im able to do 4 mins then why just keep stopping at 2 mins when i know i can safely go to at least over 3 minutes. Get what im saying? btw my personal best in water is 2 minutes no warm up or anything adding 15 seconds a day till i get 3 minutes this weekend. I dont plan on going to blackout every hold. Also it might help me see what my symptoms would feel like when im close to blacking out so i would know for later holds.
Ok, clavin2828, deanspahic has chimed in and said it, and I'm going to add to it because your reply doesn't suggest you heard this part of his message strongly enough yet...so I have to add to it. You're describing your breath holding in water, and trying to really add time to the length of your breath hold, and even talking about finding your "limit", though your limit is a constant variable in this equation. It will vary depending on many many things. But, what won't vary is how unsafe what you are talking about is-particularly if you haven't been through one of the freedive trainings and if you don't have a qualified dive buddy there with you. "Qualified" in this situation means someone you trust your life with, who you are confident knows what to do if during your breath hold you burp out all your air and start twitching and sinking. Does your dive buddy know CPR? do they know how to bring you up without making it easier to aspirate water? do they know how to position you so if you throw up before awakening you won't aspirate and get pneumonia? Forgive me if you're an extremely well trained diver who is already following all these suggestions....so don't flame me for saying this. You post just hints that you might be at the steeper part of the learning curve here. First rule of getting better at this is don't die.
just set your self small goals mate and improve conservatively .
you will gain nothing by knowing where your limit is .
you will gain nothing by knowing where your limit is .
just to add to the very good advice from simmos and deanspahic and neurodoc there is also another thing to concider.
this sort of training till blackout is very selfish. think about your buddy for a minute who is surposed to be looking after you.i'm sure if you start this sort of carry on your going to have trouble finding people to train with. there going to be the ones explaining to your family what went wrong
this sort of training till blackout is very selfish. think about your buddy for a minute who is surposed to be looking after you.i'm sure if you start this sort of carry on your going to have trouble finding people to train with. there going to be the ones explaining to your family what went wrong
Just because you try once and blackout at 4mins doesn't mean you can 'safely' do a 3min hold. People have blacked out within the first few seconds of a hold before.
Yes, push yourself to improve, in a safe environment with a buddy trained in freedive rescue. But having a goal to BO is just plain stupid. Your goal should be to push yourself to your SAFE limit. BO is past that limit. No-one would ever recommend that you should try to BO.
Yes, push yourself to improve, in a safe environment with a buddy trained in freedive rescue. But having a goal to BO is just plain stupid. Your goal should be to push yourself to your SAFE limit. BO is past that limit. No-one would ever recommend that you should try to BO.
A young motorcycle rider tells experienced colleagues that to find his limits he plans driving as fast as possible until he crashes. What do you think they will tell him? Is it really the right way to improve? Or is it better working on the technique from the bottom up, and collecting the experience without crashing as much as possible? If he starts crashing at 50mph, is it really his limit?
First of all, to get through the urge to breath, an untrained breath-holder will need to hyperventilate excessively, which means you will also reduce your hypoxic tolerance, deplete the oxygen stores in myoglobin, and increase the consumption. So you will manage to get through until the blackout, but for the price of a very poor performance.
Then a blackout may not be as harmless as many may think. Not only from psychological point of view, and for the reasons mentioned by others above, but the recent results of scientific research showed markers of a possible brain damage at borderline breath-holds, which could then understandably be much worse at a BO. It needs to be studied closer and longer to see what the damage exactly is, but anyway pushing oneself until blackout cannot be advised. It is simply unwise, and serves absolutely nothing. It may happened to many on the way to better performances, but doing it on purpose is useless, and dangerous.
First of all, to get through the urge to breath, an untrained breath-holder will need to hyperventilate excessively, which means you will also reduce your hypoxic tolerance, deplete the oxygen stores in myoglobin, and increase the consumption. So you will manage to get through until the blackout, but for the price of a very poor performance.
Then a blackout may not be as harmless as many may think. Not only from psychological point of view, and for the reasons mentioned by others above, but the recent results of scientific research showed markers of a possible brain damage at borderline breath-holds, which could then understandably be much worse at a BO. It needs to be studied closer and longer to see what the damage exactly is, but anyway pushing oneself until blackout cannot be advised. It is simply unwise, and serves absolutely nothing. It may happened to many on the way to better performances, but doing it on purpose is useless, and dangerous.
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Clavin,
I'm warmed by all the great responses given and I am absolutely sure everybody here is meaning well, I hope you understand and can appreciate that we here try to honour your questions with the best advice we know to your question.
I too try to have an understanding of your current you, and the question you really have.
At the first glance your question makes me feel very worried, even fearful. I imagine a young inexperienced, ignorant, inpatient guy about to jump a ledge because he wants to know where his BO limit is. You see how that image generates great concern within others? Later you nuance your question asking how to know your limit.
Context is important. The way and the type of questions you ask hints me you are not very experienced. It also indicates me you are eager to learn and you are willing to invest much in knowing where your limit is.
Freediving is a unique sport where counter to most other sports, less force is the way to reach more.
Freediving is also a very difficult sport because it is hard to determine your limit of the day.
Just having a BO is not going to help you understand your limit.
Why?
Because of a lack of mental and physical relaxation in this unknown territory, you will have a very short and unobservable transition between the contraction phase and the Black out. It simply goes too fast to learn anything from it.
My suggestion is to explore your body, mind and reactions VERY gradually.
You may find the following:
The only way to explore the symptoms is to very carefully and gradually walk into the unknown and observe.
You cannot observe when you don't have control over your mind or are totally focussed on holding your breath.
I hope this clears up some of the mystique.
Consider your current level I recommend fist to do more table A in bed. Learn to relax even with high CO2. This will give you more relaxation and mental control in the contraction riding phase. When you're able to do that with a 2' base time, Table B becomes a good way to gradually explore further. Do 1 table everyday, but keep yourself hydrated and in good rested shape. When your times and skills progress you'll find you need more recovery and rest too. Take notes of your training and observations. Often things are different and change, and that's what makes feeling your limit so difficult in freediving.
Now doing table A and B in bed, with very small steps, is a more educational way, but I still recommend you to do a course and explore with the help of a wise instructor.
I know blunt force is an appealing way to many impatient, but it is elegance and tact that yields the satisfying experience.
Kars
I'm warmed by all the great responses given and I am absolutely sure everybody here is meaning well, I hope you understand and can appreciate that we here try to honour your questions with the best advice we know to your question.
I too try to have an understanding of your current you, and the question you really have.
At the first glance your question makes me feel very worried, even fearful. I imagine a young inexperienced, ignorant, inpatient guy about to jump a ledge because he wants to know where his BO limit is. You see how that image generates great concern within others? Later you nuance your question asking how to know your limit.
Context is important. The way and the type of questions you ask hints me you are not very experienced. It also indicates me you are eager to learn and you are willing to invest much in knowing where your limit is.
Freediving is a unique sport where counter to most other sports, less force is the way to reach more.
Freediving is also a very difficult sport because it is hard to determine your limit of the day.
Just having a BO is not going to help you understand your limit.
Why?
Because of a lack of mental and physical relaxation in this unknown territory, you will have a very short and unobservable transition between the contraction phase and the Black out. It simply goes too fast to learn anything from it.
My suggestion is to explore your body, mind and reactions VERY gradually.
You may find the following:
Swallowing effect.
Diaphragm contractions.
maybe "Double" diaphragm contractions.
Trembling body part(s) (partial LMC)
Greying and tunnel vision. (starting About 10 second before BO in very experienced freedivers)
Loss of Motor Control.
B.O.
Diaphragm contractions.
maybe "Double" diaphragm contractions.
Trembling body part(s) (partial LMC)
Greying and tunnel vision. (starting About 10 second before BO in very experienced freedivers)
Loss of Motor Control.
B.O.
The only way to explore the symptoms is to very carefully and gradually walk into the unknown and observe.
You cannot observe when you don't have control over your mind or are totally focussed on holding your breath.
I hope this clears up some of the mystique.
Consider your current level I recommend fist to do more table A in bed. Learn to relax even with high CO2. This will give you more relaxation and mental control in the contraction riding phase. When you're able to do that with a 2' base time, Table B becomes a good way to gradually explore further. Do 1 table everyday, but keep yourself hydrated and in good rested shape. When your times and skills progress you'll find you need more recovery and rest too. Take notes of your training and observations. Often things are different and change, and that's what makes feeling your limit so difficult in freediving.
Now doing table A and B in bed, with very small steps, is a more educational way, but I still recommend you to do a course and explore with the help of a wise instructor.
I know blunt force is an appealing way to many impatient, but it is elegance and tact that yields the satisfying experience.
Kars
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This sentence is basically what i wanted to know. I can't learn when a blackout is coming or how close i am to the end until i'm more experienced.
That post was what i was looking for and helped me out.
Just a thought. I initially thought Clavin was planning a dry blackout. A question occurs to me. Can an inexperienced breath holder even manage to get a dry black out? I would think such a person would not have the mental control to get that far and would probably end the breath hold after a few contractions, thinking that was their best.
I just hate thinking how horrid a static would be, knowing that it was going to end in a black out on purpose. A black out by accident, ie in a dive or a competition is relatively easy to do, but I would think a dry black out would be very difficult for a beginner.
As for my tuppence worth. If you try it, you will hate it, (and probably fail to black out anyway). You will take many months to forget it. The memory of it will wreck any chance of you being comfortable in training the end game of a static, for a very long time.
I just hate thinking how horrid a static would be, knowing that it was going to end in a black out on purpose. A black out by accident, ie in a dive or a competition is relatively easy to do, but I would think a dry black out would be very difficult for a beginner.
As for my tuppence worth. If you try it, you will hate it, (and probably fail to black out anyway). You will take many months to forget it. The memory of it will wreck any chance of you being comfortable in training the end game of a static, for a very long time.
I'm not sure that even very experienced freedivers always know when a blackout is coming. If you look at some of the results during competitions, it is apparent that even extremely experienced and talented freediving pros can misread their body or slightly overestimate their limit on that day and experience a BO or LMC. The "limit" isn't a constant, which is one reason that Kars says you cannot learn from trying to find the limit. Please recognize that you have received advice here, in this thread, from some of the most experienced and knowledgeable people you're likely to find. I am new at this also, and am constantly humbled and amazed that people with their level of experience will address questions from those of us that are new, and take the time to try to impart knowledge that in some cases I'm sure was earned the hard way. This is a very safety conscious sport, with good reason. Try to learn from the comments and not be defensive when you get answers that may not have been what you were hoping to hear.
Clavin, please understand that communication is an art in itself.
In order to understand others one has to have a good understanding of oneself, one's own sensitivities, and be able to identify the involuntary knee-jerk reactions within oneself in order to avoid premature judgement and be able to provide a rational response.
We are raised in different cultures, behold different believes, live in different environments, and have different levels of expression and listening skills. On this international forum many try to communicate in an alien language. This increases the chances of misunderstandings, misjudgement resulting in hurt. Luckily we are blessed with a community who loves to learn and experience and therefore has the wisdom and patience to assume the positive intentions and first seek to have clarification.
So please, if you will, restate and or clarify your question(s) so we can help you out.
In order to understand others one has to have a good understanding of oneself, one's own sensitivities, and be able to identify the involuntary knee-jerk reactions within oneself in order to avoid premature judgement and be able to provide a rational response.
We are raised in different cultures, behold different believes, live in different environments, and have different levels of expression and listening skills. On this international forum many try to communicate in an alien language. This increases the chances of misunderstandings, misjudgement resulting in hurt. Luckily we are blessed with a community who loves to learn and experience and therefore has the wisdom and patience to assume the positive intentions and first seek to have clarification.
So please, if you will, restate and or clarify your question(s) so we can help you out.
Exactly, even experienced freedivers are often not able to recognize the approaching BO (or to behave accordingly when they do). Otherwise we would not see so many BOs at competitions (at least not in pool disciplines). The main problem is that when you start being hypoxic, your cognitive and reasoning capacity is limited.