How are instructors/trainers dealing w/liability?

[tylerz]

I am curious whether any of the instructors/trainers out there care to share what approach they have taken to dealing with liability and insurance issues? I am certain there will be some variances in regulation and legal stances depending on the location of instruction and/or the citizenship of the instructor. So, any details in that regard as well.

Cheers,

Tyler

 

[Jorg]

I'm giving course in the Netherlands, and until last last year I only used DAN insurance to cover liability together with a waiver students/competitors have to sign. But because DAN made it clear that freediving is not included in their insurance I know have a special "made to measure" insurance with an insurance company over here. And of course I'm still using the waiver to sign for the students.

 

[cebaztian]

Are you sure DAN does not include freediving. I think they do (but not competitions).

Sebastian

 

[BennyB]

In 2005, DAN covered freediving but not record attempts. Not sure if this has changed since.

 

[Jorg]

Depends who you talk to... the italian guy who answers the email says they do cover freediving instruction. The french/dutch speaking guy says they don't... And if you read the complete policy very carefully there are some tricky things in there which you could apply to freediving.

As I understood it: If you freedive and you have an accident it's all covered. If you have a business insurance with and something happens to a student and he sues you this is not a problem with scuba (of course) but if it's with freediving they will do there best that get it all fixed and arranged. That's of course not good enough for me.

Btw, I'm talking about DAN Europe here! I know that DAN USA is much more strict about freediving.

 

[trux]

You may try to have a look at the French insurer AXA. They are the official insurance agency for the French diving federation FFESSM, and they do have plans for competitors and instructors too. I am not sure though if they offer any insurance for non-residents and non-FFESSM divers. You can try contacting them, but I am not sure how is their English - the linguistic capabilities of most French are a real tragedy.

 

[Jorg]

I use the AXA insurance company as well... be its a made to measure policy made by an insurance agent here in the Netherlands.

 

[samdive]

I have DAN Europe insurance and a letter from DAN reassuring me that freediving IS included by their cover. They confirmed with me that they cover anything that is not more than the local national record.

I also have a liability release written for me by a lawyer that my students/divers sign, I add in the AIDA liability release and AIDA or RSTC medical

DAN Americas did not cover any form of freediving last time I asked

Sam

 

[Jorg]

Okay, two different things:
- Liability
- personal cover

DAN Europe covers personal freediving injuries and accidents as long as it's not more then the national record.

DAN Europe does not cover students wanting money from you as an instructor because they had an accident ''because of you'', so the liability part.

 

[samdive]

I have a letter from DAN Europe to say that they DO cover liability! I demanded it in writing as like you, I didn't believe it from reading the policy but they insist they do

 

[Jorg]

Sam, can you scan it and send it to me please?

 

[SnuFPunK]

I give courses using a waiver, a medical statement and DAN insurance.

I too have been reassured that DAN covers personal injury if it is not a record attempt AND lawsuits from injured students.

 

[tylerz]

! Great feedback everybody. Like Jorg is attempting to clarify, you have to be careful of the details. I have read the DAN insurance policy which states it covers "injury". But I have not seen it state anywhere that it covers "liability". In the insurance world injury refers to injury to yourself. Liability refers to if somebody sues you.

So, specifically to instructors, the DAN policy I saw mentioned nothing about liability and therefore definitely would not cover an instructor being sued. It would cover the instructor being hurt by the act of freediving.

Now, if somebody has a letter that specifically says "liability" is covered, please post a photo here of the relevant section in the documentation, if you don't mind.

Thanks again for your experiences,

Tyler

 

[SnuFPunK]

I dont have a scanner but im looking at the document

"liability towards third parties up to 3.500.000,00 euro
legal defence up to 150.000,00 euro"

this is in the professional insurance policy of course.

 

[island_sands]

Welcome to Dive Master Insurance

These guys offer really good instructor and freediving insurance.

 

[tylerz]

Now, does anybody have the answer to do you have to be a resident of the country of the insurer? Can you be a foreigner and get insurance for activity in the insurer's country?

Nobody has mentioned a solution employed in North America yet, anything?

 

[Haydn]

It always bothers me when instructors make you sign a waiver before a course. Not just freediving, but virtually any course. I believe you instructors are the experts and if you cause through negligence: ie parachute instructor not clipping in the static line, driving instructor forgetting to remind the student to put on the safety belt, flying instructor not telling you to approach the aeroplane from the rear so you dont walk into a rotating prop, freedive instructor........(you fill in the blanks), and your student hurts themselves because of your lack, then you are liable, even if your student signed a document saying they release you from liability.

Then we have to ask ourselves, is it fair for the student who is now injured, to have to prove you were negligent, before they can be compensated for your mistakes or forgetfulness or down right dangerous methods.

I am not certain that the signed waiver will protect you and that is why you must be insured. Then again, is there anything in your insurance policy that restricts a pay out, particularly if you are shown that the accident was due to your negligence. However, even if the accident was the instructors fault, it is still a question of whether that fault was an accident or a negligent act. Its a real minefield and I have signed so many waivers. The problem is that the waivers are generally handed out during the first morning of a course, its difficult at that point to decide not to sign and fly home instead. And if they did decide not to stay, would you reimburse their course fee?

 

[naiad]

It always bothers me when instructors make you sign a waiver before a course. Not just freediving, but virtually any course.

Same with me. It just feels like I am signing away all liability for anything which might happen. Of course I accept that I may be taking risks, and that if an accident happens it may not be anyone's fault, but if someone gives me equipment which is known to be faulty, fails to tell me about safety procedures or threatens me with loss of job, waste of money, etc if I refuse to do something dangerous, then I want to know that someone is accountable. I may have chosen to do a sport or job, but I did not choose to put myself in unreasonable or unexpected danger.

I have been in the situation where I am not allowed to do a simple task because it 'may be dangerous', and also where I am asked to do a ridiculous and dangerous task with apparently no regard for my safety.

I am not certain that the signed waiver will out during the first morning of a course, its difficult at that point to decide not to sign and fly home instead. And if they did decide not to stay, would you reimburse their course fee?

That is true. I think it would be fair to reimburse the course fee, but I don't know if this is done.

Lucia

 

[fcallagy]

I know where you are coming from but this all happened imho due to a lot of spurious claims in any sports/activities and life in general think mcdonalds hot coffee and winnebagos cruise control law suits as an extreme example. I think if we expect to do "dangerous sports" it should be at our own risk if you think someone is doing something dodgy like sending me to 100m on a sled on my first freediving course i think i would say no rather than trust their expertise. I have done 3 courses now and on all of them I was well looked after and never pressureised to do something i felt was beyond me.
As for the course fee you should be made aware of the waiver before you book it but from the instructors point of view they may have incurred costs laying on the course should they just have to suffer those costs ?

 

[Yidaki]

In Florida, we have liability insurance from Vicencia Buckley (might be other companies but I don't know cos PADI works with this company)and health insurance for ourselves and our students from DAN. So, DAN doesn't cover for liability...