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How well do you think you breathe?

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gerard

New Member
Oct 3, 2002
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Folks, you spend too much time focusing in achieving results in terms of improved/adapted physiology. Let me tell you that the key is not how much you do it but how you do it?

Proper equalisation is another story and it needs to be trained in that way, or maybe not if you reach a beyond physical level.

First, have you learned how to breathe properly, not just the typical belly breathing that most trainees do. Just do a bit of research in this area and you'll find out that deep breathing is far more complex than that, and it will probably take you a minimum of a year to control full abdominal breathing plus the three locks. This kind of breathing will slow down your HR plus improved diving reflex.

Some Chinese masters won't allow their disciples to advance in their training unless they have learned how to breathe properly - as I said- for at least a year.

Getting back to the metaphysical issue, what I am talking about is controlling your body and its functions with your mind -and guiding chi if you use Chi Gung meditation- otherwise mind-breath-body control as in Yoga. So investing most of our training in meditation will definitively improve performance to a different level. Current breatholding records will be pulverised not by minutes but by hours (as some Yogis and Taoist masters have already accomplished). Current records in terms of constant depth (+/- 100 m.) will also be history if someone masters meditation and applies it to this environment.

The following (extensive) link will help you to understand the power of the mind (and chi) over the body:

http://www.purifymind.com/MeditationIntro.htm


And the last question is:

What would it happen if the apneist achieves the where a transmutation between matter and energy -according to E=mc^2-occurs? Theoretically is possible but has anyone achieved it to a full extent. Think a bit here.


Good luck with your training, Gerard.
 

Alun

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2001
763
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i must admit i've always been very sceptical of the whole 'yogis can hold their breath for hours' story. sounds to me like these guys have far too much spare time on their hands :) seriously though, has this kind of thing ever been witnessed by respected scientists, published in a highly regarded journal and generally accepted by other researchers? if not, then why not...? quite frankly, i won't believe any of it until it has been proved beyond doubt.
 
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WISR

Semi aquatic monkey
Jan 16, 2003
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This is a classical East-West difference: The westerners (as i am one) try to go for the top result, the more minutes, the deeper dive, the bigger fish and so on. Have you ever heard a yogi saying "i was in a deeper meditation than you" ??

To Alun: yes there are serious reports on yogis doing amazing breath-hold times: Jaques Mayol, (who lived East and West) reports of Yogis doing 20min, in his book "Homo Delphinus".

I think there are a few people out there who could change the static worldranking dramatically, but they simply don't care about more minutes, more fame etc. because they are on a different search.
 

Alun

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2001
763
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yes, i've read that book. as i remember, he was doing nothing more than recounting a story, which could well have been second hand information. i'm talking about serious experiments being done under controlled conditions. let's not forget that these yogis potentially have a lot to gain from making these kinds of claims - such as greater respect from their students and local community etc. now i'm not saying these claims are blatant lies, but it's very easy for these stories to be... exaggerated somewhat. they may well claim that they don't need to prove themselves to 'western scientists'. last time i checked there is no 'eastern science' and 'western science' so that excuse doesn't really wash with me :)
 
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st3fan

cu @ the bottom
Nov 2, 2002
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What would it happen if the apneist achieves the where a transmutation between matter and energy -according to E=mc^2-occurs? Theoretically is possible but has anyone achieved it to a full extent. Think a bit here.

I really enjoyed this one :D
 

Tommy Engfors

New Member
Jul 29, 2003
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Originally posted by WISR
This is a classical East-West difference: The westerners (as i am one) try to go for the top result, the more minutes, the deeper dive, the bigger fish and so on. Have you ever heard a yogi saying "i was in a deeper meditation than you" ??

To Alun: yes there are serious reports on yogis doing amazing breath-hold times: Jaques Mayol, (who lived East and West) reports of Yogis doing 20min, in his book "Homo Delphinus".


Regarding Homo Delphinus; One has to thread the pages in that particular book with a healthy bit of suspicious thinking. Basically it's pseduoscience all the way. A yogi praticioner telling you he/she or his buddy can hold their breath for 20 minutes is just one of many things you simply cannot accept at face value and then put in a book. At least not if you want to retain any sort of scientific credibility. Mayol as a freediver has really impressed me, but Mayol as a man of scientific thinking was a huge dissapointment. Anyone who is about to read his book (which is worth taking a look at, if not only for the pretty pictures, which are plentyfull) please think twice about some of the more ludicrus claims he makes. We really don't need that stuff in a sport were proven facts are few and far between.

Just my 2 cents...
 
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st3fan

cu @ the bottom
Nov 2, 2002
85
21
98
Another profound source reports yogi's to fly - unaided of course. One of the most famous - named Pilot Baba - also does static in sealed boxes for several days!!!
http://antarbrahmandiya.tripod.com/Volume-Two/2-4.html

I can clearly envision Pilot Baba competing at cyprus riding down the rope flying on his carpet and setting a new record of -200m in cool 30mins with ease....

As the humble Pilot Baba of course has e-mail, it's only a matter of time when this will happen!!

May the yogic powers be with you :D :D
 
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Alun

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2001
763
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ah yes, of course... yogic flying!... here in the UK we have a political party called the natural law party, and they are/were(?) really into yogic flying for some reason. these people would bounce around on mattresses in the lotus position desperately trying to fly... :)
 

unirdna

tropical wuss
Sep 16, 2002
1,016
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Originally posted by Tommy Engfors
Mayol as a freediver has really impressed me, but Mayol as a man of scientific thinking was a huge dissapointment.

I've also read Homo Delphinus. I wasn't disappointed with Mayol as a scientific thinker, because I had no such expectations. As with many humans who have gained a high level of credibility in one discipline, he had no reservations discussing other disciplines with the same level of confidence. I kept a keen eye out for 'if's', 'possibly's', and 'maybe's' while I read.....not many :hmm.

The book has its merits, and it is a good read. But it should be read as the experience of one man (albeit, quite an exceptional man), not as an example of freediving science.

....back to the subject. Gerard, I appreciate your attention to the subject of proper breathing. Can you offer any expertise, links, or documentation?

Ted
 
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Rik

In to diving medicine
Oct 4, 2002
174
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I think that I could agree with the thought that breathing patterns always can be improved. Nevertheless, how this relates to the metaphysical aspect is a bit beyond my knowledge to discuss.

There is not much scientific results known on this field and the needed research for objective results is not always possible.

More important, what I do remember to have read about those cases is that the yogi often needs long times of preparation before and after the 'attempt'. With that in mind for both competition and recreational free diving I believe that the techniques, not discussing their validity, would have limited use for free diving.

But perhaps someone has another idea on that…

Rik
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
487
173
Do people agree that if a yogi can stop his heart, he should be able to hold his breath for a long time? Swami Rama has been documented stopping his heart in the most critical of western laboratories. He also wrote a book on advanced breath-holding, even though he didn't demonstrate breath-holding in those particular experiments.

However, Laminar and I have been working on this problem (yogi breath-holds) for over a year, and we think we MAY have found the secret. However, you have to 'walk the walk, before you can talk the talk,' so don't take any of this at face value until we can actually demonstrate it! If our discovery works out, we'll try to do a 12-minute static at the 2004 worlds here in Vancouver. Unless we were actually successful, we would not claim to have found any secrets.... The technique we are working on requires concentration beyond what I had ever imagined. The problem with the technique is that you simply cannot concentrate at that level for the whole 12 minutes (or 20 minutes, or whatever). The best I did so far was a 5 minute breath-hold where according to the oximeter I was on pace for 9'30 - 10'00, but as always, I simply lost my concentration (and aborted @ 5'00 with hemoglobin saturation of 93%). So, we have shifted our focus to learning concentration exercises. It seems that you don't need high hemoglobin, good fitness, or anything like that, all you need is to be able to have one-pointed concentration for the duration of the breath-hold. So far the longest one-pointed concentration I have managed is 77 seconds. So I'm light years away. I would comment that when you perform this technique, you don't get contractions and your heart rate drops to 17-25bpm, hence the low O2 consumption.

Wait for the 2004 worlds and see what happens! August 11, 2004 is the static competition. Ironically I did my CW record on August 11, 2001 -- maybe it's a sign!!

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 

Alun

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2001
763
83
118
i've heard about people stopping their hearts and i believe it can be done. a friend of mine can drop his HR to 25-30bpm (for about 20secs) without doing anything - just through 'mind control'. i certainly believe some people can stop their hearts for a few seconds, but i doubt that anyone has managed it for any significant length of time - and lived! :D
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
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According to the lab data, Swami Rama stopped his heart for 17 seconds. Rama said that he could stop it for much longer if he fasted for four days before hand, but he didn't know that far in advance of the experiment.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 

tuomo

Soon in water
Sep 3, 2001
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I have to agree with Alun that it is possible to slow down ones heart rate and maybe even stop it to very short time. This however in my opinion has nothing to do with powers such as flying. I believe that some part of these yoga experiences come from self hypnosis and I think that one should be very sceptical on these subjects. Our mind is very easily altered, and even our own sub consiousnes can do that.
Best of luck to all of you who are pursuing better static times with mind/body control. I'm really eager to hear how you ( Eric & Pete ) do with your new static method.

Tuomo
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
487
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I disagree with Tuomo.

If you really wonder about so-called 'impossible' feats of flying, levitating, psychokinesis, etc.., researching or arguing will never prove or disprove it to YOU.

The only way you can find out the truth is by performing some simple experiments in your own home.

In 1992 I performed a simple experiment for 70 days which proved beyond a doubt (to ME) that 'impossible' things are possible. It is not even useful to ask me about the experiment, because the experiment was not designed to prove anything to YOU, it was designed to prove it to ME. The only way you can prove these things to yourself is to perform your OWN experiments. You may not manage to 'fly' or 'levitate', but if you set up an experiment that demonstrates that your own mind (and thoughts) can affect the physical world around you, then surely you can imagine what must be possible for someone who spends years doing those things.

However, I understand that people who have never done any experiments might remain skeptical.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
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tuomo

Soon in water
Sep 3, 2001
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I agree with you Eric that it may be possible to some extend. But I reserve right to remain skeptical.. ;)
Personally I would be less skeptical if I would personally percieve someone performing some feats as you described. However I do not trust MYSELF neither YOU in sense of experiementing on oneself. This because of fact that human mind is very prone to hypnosis, especially self inflicted hypnosis. Actually the state of mind that can be reached through concentration is even more open to suggestions, consious or subconsious. That's why I cannot trust experiements that I could perform alone. Although my skeptisism would make performing such experiement a bit more difficult anyhow.
I'm not trying to ridicule you, Eric, or anyone else. I'm just expressing my own thoughts on this matter and my understanding of scientific proof.

Tuomo
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
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Tuomo,

I agree -- that is why you must setup the experiment so the device being 'concentrated on', must be permanently modified after the experiment. So, if it is permanently modified, that cannot be hypnosis. You can even show the device to someone else, and they can confirm that it is modified, even if you don't tell them 'how' it was modified.

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 

clogz

New Member
Aug 30, 2001
88
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Originally posted by efattah
The technique we are working on requires concentration beyond what I had ever imagined. The problem with the technique is that you simply cannot concentrate at that level for the whole 12 minutes (or 20 minutes, or whatever). The best I did so far was a 5 minute breath-hold where according to the oximeter I was on pace for 9'30 - 10'00, but as always, I simply lost my concentration (and aborted @ 5'00 with hemoglobin saturation of 93%).

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

Hi,

I'm sure it's all in the book but unfortunately I don't have it now. So, if we suppose you can concentrate that 10 or 13 minutes at that level without getting any contractions or anything, how do you know when to come up? It doesn't sound like you can watch your timer every 1min if trying to concentrate..?

Br,
Juha
 

Tommy Engfors

New Member
Jul 29, 2003
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Originally posted by efattah
I disagree with Tuomo.

If you really wonder about so-called 'impossible' feats of flying, levitating, psychokinesis, etc.., researching or arguing will never prove or disprove it to YOU.


If research can't prove or disprove things like levitating, then what is research for? Just to clarify what you mean...


The only way you can find out the truth is by performing some simple experiments in your own home.

In 1992 I performed a simple experiment for 70 days which proved beyond a doubt (to ME) that 'impossible' things are possible. It is not even useful to ask me about the experiment, because the experiment was not designed to prove anything to YOU, it was designed to prove it to ME. The only way you can prove these things to yourself is to perform your OWN experiments. You may not manage to 'fly' or 'levitate', but if you set up an experiment that demonstrates that your own mind (and thoughts) can affect the physical world around you, then surely you can imagine what must be possible for someone who spends years doing those things.

However, I understand that people who have never done any experiments might remain skeptical.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

This thread is becoming interesting, but I disagree about the "only way you can find out the truth" part. I think there are several different ways to find out the truth about something, not just by doing experiments in ones own home. For example, by asking others to do the same experiment and see if they end up with the same result. You could share your 1992 experiment with us for instance... If we can replicate your results then it would really add some weight to what you are saying.
 
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Tommy Engfors

New Member
Jul 29, 2003
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Originally posted by efattah
According to the lab data, Swami Rama stopped his heart for 17 seconds. Rama said that he could stop it for much longer if he fasted for four days before hand, but he didn't know that far in advance of the experiment.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

Interesting stuff. I did a quick search on the net.

Information about that particular experiment (and more), which was performed some 33 years ago, can be found by clicking on this link:

http://www.geocities.com/swamiramabio/ResearchSwamiRama.htm

Some of the things he did are on par with landing on the moon.
 
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