hypercapnic training

[otrebor]

Hi, I can't find nothing about hypercapnic training.
Any of you can tell me if there is a way to train hypercapnic tolerance? I'm interested only dry training example (biking or walking or running or bodyweight exercises).

Thanks

 

[Mullins]

Repeat short distances/durations with very short recoveries.

I'm not sure about the benefits of hypercapnic training though. My own reaction to elevated CO2 has hardly changed since about a year after I started freediving; and my improvement in that year was probably related to technique. I still get contractions from about 60m in DYN.

 

[otrebor]

thank you, Mullins

what kind of training has given you more benefits in freediving?

 

[growingupninja]

A lot of pool sets that stress hypercapnia also in my case have helped with lactic acid tolerance--moreso if I add a sprint element. That is something that has helped with my deeper dives--both in being able to do them repetitively and with better bottom times. For dry training you can just get an apnea app for your phone, set it to CO2 tables and pedal a sationary bike while you do the table.

 

[otrebor]

thanks to you too, Growingupninja

 

[Mullins]

thank you, Mullins

what kind of training has given you more benefits in freediving?

Longer distances with longer recoveries. I don't get very acidic muscles doing CO2 sets - bloodflow is too good.

 

[Simos]

Longer distances with longer recoveries. I don't get very acidic muscles doing CO2 sets - bloodflow is too good.

Out of curiosity Dave, do you get acidic muscles if you do sets of shorter underwater sprints followed by sprints on the surface? eg say 50m apnea sprint followed by 50m sprint on surface (no break in between), then short recovery and do the same cycle again. (obviously 50m can/should be adjusted)

If you did a few cycles like that, how would the lactic buildup compare to say a much longer distance?

 

[watts]

Dave do you get very lactic during your big dives?

 

[Mullins]

Simos, I'd get some initial burning but once into a rhythm that goes away. Instead of burning my legs just tend to lose power. It's quite different in big dives, intense burning well before any big loss of power.

I've been doing lots of strength training for the last few months and it's been interesting. My apnea has gone downhill in a big way - I can sprint 100m with no problems but longer swims are horrible. Muscles just not used to apnea endurance, which seems to be quite a specific adaptation that's hard to imitate in the gym. Hopefully I can get it back fairly quickly and keep the strength base. I need it for this mono...

 

[Simos]

Simos, I'd get some initial burning but once into a rhythm that goes away. Instead of burning my legs just tend to lose power. It's quite different in big dives, intense burning well before any big loss of power.

I've been doing lots of strength training for the last few months and it's been interesting. My apnea has gone downhill in a big way - I can sprint 100m with no problems but longer swims are horrible. Muscles just not used to apnea endurance, which seems to be quite a specific adaptation that's hard to imitate in the gym. Hopefully I can get it back fairly quickly and keep the strength base. I need it for this mono...

I guess the approach is no different than other sports so if you time it well, it should work fine. Sometimes you need to take a step 'backwards' to take two steps forwards.

I am following the same approach with my apnea training but with more steps backwards - stopped for 10 months now and focusing on spending hours on end in front of a computer and eating double portions of food followed by copious amounts of dessert and coffee. Will let you know how many steps forwards I've made in September when i'll hopefully be able to start doing a bit of training again.

 

[growingupninja]

Simos, I'd get some initial burning but once into a rhythm that goes away. Instead of burning my legs just tend to lose power. It's quite different in big dives, intense burning well before any big loss of power.

I've been doing lots of strength training for the last few months and it's been interesting. My apnea has gone downhill in a big way - I can sprint 100m with no problems but longer swims are horrible. Muscles just not used to apnea endurance, which seems to be quite a specific adaptation that's hard to imitate in the gym. Hopefully I can get it back fairly quickly and keep the strength base. I need it for this mono...

Heh, my experience in the last year has been roughly the opposite. I went from training with pro cage fighters 4-5 times a week and being an explosively powerful VO2 max monster to gentle freediver. I have lost a great deal of upper body strength (and some weight/mass) but kept pretty good fin specific leg strength. I feel like my functional cardio/VO2 is literally half what it used to be.

I am newer to focused apnea training so initial gains are to be expected but our local 'deep' water now feels awfully shallow. Since I was mostly training for spearing in deep water, hypercapnic sprint sets seemed to help a lot as far as maintaining an aggressive surface interval while still being able to make repeat dives to depths that trigger in me some real DR.

I learned a while back that my optimum 'apnea' endurance speed is actually very, very slow, but did some weeks where all my pool training was either sprint or at least much faster than optimum. I started trying to increase my distances and kept running into a lactic wall (burn+muscular failure). Then I was in the water with a serious dynamic swimmer and we got into discussion about muscular failure vs 'I just have to stop and breathe now'. When I slowed my swim tempo WAY back down, my previous lactic burn threshhold had shifted substantially and was much better.

When I used to race (swimming), we built our season's training schedule around the timing of the championship meets--usually logging heavy mileage and strength training in the early part, then moving more into lactic work (less mileage but faster pace), then into sprint and technique (little mileage, longer recoveries, max speed). By the end of taper 'workout' was little more than a warm-up and some mock races, and by end of our tapers we felt like we could walk on water. I think for freediving it makes sense to do something similar, except at the end of a freedive taper you would of course be doing apnea distance at optimum pace as opposed to sprinting.

 

[Mullins]

^ I'm hoping this approach will work in a similar way. I really needed to do the strength work anyway. It has sorted out a muscle imbalance I've had for years (patella tracking).

 

[watts]

That's interesting Dave I thought you we've against the fitness/ weights approach.
I am going to focus on more hypoxic training and less fitness or hypercapnic stuff this cycle.
I don't get too lactic till after my dives so its not my weakest link. I seem to progress best when I'm doing regular big swims as long as my motivation and drive stays up.
Leading up to a comp or pb how many maxs or big swims would you do a week Dave?

 

[Mullins]

That's interesting Dave I thought you we've against the fitness/ weights approach.

I generally am, because I don't think it's necessary at all for the pool disciplines - and only marginally useful for depth in a direct way. However I'm giving it a go at the moment for a few reasons:

- had to sort out my knee and squats / deadlifts were the best way of doing that
- tired of being weak and unfit through years of concentrating on freediving
- interested to see what happens if I change my training for a while then return to long swims. My body is probably quite accustomed to hypoxic training and might respond well to a change.

In the leadup to a comp I generally alternate between DYN and DNF and would do two or three long swims per week immediately beforehand. 200m in each discipline is long enough to taper with while staying controlled and not burning out. Sometimes longer in DYN but typically no PB swims.

 

[watts]

Cheers mate. Hope you can hit that 300 soon in a comp.

 

[Will]

I'm not sure about the benefits of hypercapnic training though. My own reaction to elevated CO2 has hardly changed since about a year after I started freediving; and my improvement in that year was probably related to technique. I still get contractions from about 60m in DYN.

You don't think that it might allow you to start with a higher initial level (less ventilation), meaning the DR would come on earlier and you'd start conserving O2 earlier, but your contractions would come at the same time, since your reaction to it has dulled?
This is one of the premises I use for hypercapnic training; another is that it helps deal with the rapidly increasing ppCO2 during a descent, so equalisation, among other things, is easier.

 

[Mullins]

Thing is, my reaction to it doesn't change with hypercapnic training. I can start with pretty high CO2 in the pool, bit less in depth because I have to favour equalisation. I have a plateau that is reached with high intensity/low duration training and adding hypercapnic work doesn't give me further benefit.

Any idea whether you can match the pH you get on a single big dive by doing tables / intervals?

ps having been off the weights for a good 3 weeks now I'm actually feeling pretty good again in the water. A thorough equipment change was compounding things a bit.

 

[Will]

I don't know about the pH, but I can get CO2 narcosis during hypercapnic tables, as well as lactic acid almost comparable to the end of a max attempt. It takes 10+ minutes of fast intervals to arrive at this state though.
I credit a lot of my results to this type of training, but if anything for larger lung volumes (more CO2 buffer space) this might become less important than e.g. lactic acid tolerance?

Will be interesting to see what you're capable of with those upgraded muscles Dave!

 

[Simos]

Thing is, my reaction to it doesn't change with hypercapnic training. I can start with pretty high CO2 in the pool, bit less in depth because I have to favour equalisation. I have a plateau that is reached with high intensity/low duration training and adding hypercapnic work doesn't give me further benefit.

Any idea whether you can match the pH you get on a single big dive by doing tables / intervals?

ps having been off the weights for a good 3 weeks now I'm actually feeling pretty good again in the water. A thorough equipment change was compounding things a bit.

My (probably simplistic and naive) thoughts Dave:

Physiologically speaking, I can't think of a reason why you shouldn't be able to achieve the same pH or lower with intervals since you should be able to continue working your muscles with inadequate oxygen without blacking out, so you must be building an oxygen debt that will be compounded if you continue long enough.

I was wondering whether due to a high lung volume (and probably blood volume?) you are finding it really hard to get a compounding effect. Did you try the same exercises (eg sprints with minimal recovery etc) on empty lung instead to see if it makes any difference?

From your previous description it seems also that you might be getting tired before reaching this stage so I am wondering if doing a static first followed by the sprint(s) would give you some 'head start' in terms of oxygen debt and establishing a DR before the sprints?

 

[growingupninja]

re: hypercapnic training and contractions
Based on what I can do with an aggressive SI, both in the pool and in the ocean, I know my CO2 tolerance has gotten much, much better in the last year. But, the time when I experience my first contraction has only shifted maybe 15-20%. However, I feel like I am mentally much more clear headed as contractions start, and more relaxed, and contractions feel gentler (although this could be shifting perception). In a pool it is what it is, but for my deeper spearing dives it really helps me to be more clear headed on the bottom.

From running tests with an O2 sat meter, I have learned that contractions for me are nearly meaningless and not something I need to avoid--I may start to get them when my O2 sat is still 98% in some cases, and if I am in the water, a healthy DR seems to kick in at the same time and be very consistent. On dry land, I will frequently get contractions but no DR until my O2 is much lower, and bradycardia may also come and go a bit until I get truly hypoxic. (I have not been able to test in the water if I get the same DR coupled with a high remaining O2 during a sprint, but from ancedotal experience I doubt it.) Unfortunately I don't know if my in water DR has improved or has always been there since I had never tried to test it. I think it has probably improved a good deal with training.