Increasing Dynamics

[AlanC]

Now that i've a racked up a number of Apnea walks, which are the only dynamics i can do at the moment cos i aint got a pool, i have built up adequate CO2 tolerance to get past the stage where the urge to breath is what stops me. Now at about 1:30-1:40 my legs rapidly weaken and i feel the start of 'the burn'. So far i have stopped at this point cos i train on my own and don't want to risk anything.

What i want to know is:

Is this my current anaerobic threshold, which i'm assuming could be met fairly quickly at low intenisty given the low O2 supply?

Can i go past this point and how far? Just like running the end of a race or something?

Am i chatting crap?

Thanks,

Alan.

 

[efattah]

Tiredness of legs is not an indicator of when to stop -- fading vision and fading thinking is usually more accurate, although if exercising hard in apnea, the onset of the blackout may be fast enough you won't have time to realize you can barely see or think anymore.

The very definition of anaerobic threshold becomes hazy when holding the breath. Certainly when you are unable to walk anymore, you have reached some sort of lactic acid threshold (lactate threshold?) Generally anaerobic thresholds are used for aerobic athletes trying to figure out how much power they can generate for a given air consumption? But given that we aren't breathing, it doesn't seem to make sense...?

I also remember lactate threshold being defined as the suddenly switch in the slope of the lactic acid vs. intensity curve.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[AlanC]

Thanks Eric,

I use the term anaerobic threshold to define the point where lactate is being produced faster than it can be removed (low oxygen results in more lactate production for a given intensity). This is the point where power output is significantly reduced in running and i assume in dynamic apnea. I think you are talking about VO2 max.

So i'm thinking that at this point the aerobic pathway will be required and due the the low O2 levels from not breathing, and from what has already been used up, O2 levels would then drop rapidly as you pointed out in your first paragraph and cause blackout.

From experience, how long would people say you can continue at this threshold point? I'm thinking safety here.

Alan.

 

[erasmuspaxi]

Thinking safety: what is the worst that could happen to you when doing dry dynamics?
As long as you´re not riding your bike or crossing the lokal freeway while doing it I believe you´re safe.
Besides it is not that easy to deliberately black out. I have tried and my CO2 adaption also is pretty good I believe.
If lactate is the limiting factor in dry dynamics you should built up a higher tolerance for that. which means train your muscels to still move when you couldn´t move them before. (do sprints while holding your breath ....but do them dry)
When I do dry dynamics I start to run when I feel the O2 urge2breathe. That would train your confidence with urge2breathe and your legs lactate tolerance quite a bit.

Anyway in 1:40 you should be able to do more than 100m in the pool no matter what fins you use.
Always keep in mind you are not using your dive reflex yet!!!
Once submersed you will have a longer and more relaxed easyphase and the urge2breathe won´t be as bad. Just keep an eye open towards the end to be able to tell when you will pass out. (excuse any english mistakes...still learning)

Happy birthday Alan !

erasmus

 

[AlanC]

Thanks Erasmus,
Looks like i need to work on my lactate tolerance which i will be doing later in the year for my athletics so i'll wait until then. I just wanted to check i wasn't gonna black out unexpectedly.

Your english is pretty much perfect by the way.

Alan.

 

[Kars]

This tread inspires me to, thanks!

safetytip, do it on grassland, IF you suddenly blackout you'll land softer
Training with a buddy is also much more fun, as you can stimulate and debate about things you experience. If the training is more fun then you'll train more and better, hence better resulds.

Kars

 

[shaneshac]

Guys, the lactate or anaerobic threshold (AT) is the point at which the body is producing exactly the same amount of lactic acid as it can remove (sort of a steady state). Any effort greater than this will result in the lactic acid being produced faster than removed so the level will increase until muscle failure occurs. The harder the effort the quicker this will happen. Endurance athletes train to be able to keep at AT. Even 1 hour at a time.

As we are holding our breath the AT should not come into the equation. As we train for lactate tolerance, the pH at which the muscles shut down decreased (more acidic) and hence we can keep the work up for longer. On my anaerobic tests at university I would lose power at 8.5mMol lactate during the start of season and at about 12mMol at the mid season. This means I could maintain max power for an extra 30 secs without blowing up.

I think that unless you are working excessively hard, you would cramp up well before blacking out.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[AlanC]

shaca

That's a better explanation of what i was trying to say, thanks.

So basically we go straigt past AT cos we are not supplying enough O2 to balance the lactate so we just need to increase lactate tolerance which sucks cos the training is painful.

I'm not sure about the blacking out though. I would of thought that if your CO2 and Lactate tolerance was high enough you could lower your O2 to blackout levels.

 

[shaneshac]

In my opinion, unless you are walking bog slow, you will reach your max lactate level and shut before you run out of O2 and black out.

Maybe this could be the answer for avoiding blackout and get the max benefit from lactate tolerance training. Walk real fast so you lactate (no rude thoughts here ) faster than you O2 deplete.

Not completely sure this would work though.

 

[Memo]

very nice feedback Shane. But I think we should not depend on our lactate tolerance limit

 

[shaneshac]

Memo,

Having a high lactate tolerance might mean the difference between having enough power to get to surface in time or having your legs fade (as happened to efattah) and stopping altogether on your way up. This would be bloody frightening.

SO having a high lactate tolerance is important for long dynamics but more so , for safety reasons in deep constant weight dives.

 

[Memo]

you are totally right and its also important to carry a 20+kg AJ to the surface from some reasonable depths

 

[shaneshac]

Too right man!!!!!!!

Or if you get wrapped by a 300 kilo tuna and have to force him up to the surface

 

[donmoore]

I’m not an expert on lactate maximum, etc, but I can tell you my experience with dynamic walking. For a long-time, I could not break 2:00. The only time my legs would ever hurt was if something kept me out of the weight room for a couple of weeks, but my vision would get blurred, narrowed, and I would see lots of stars.

One day I was determine to reach 2:00 minutes. At about 1:50 my vision again narrowed followed by some real hard contractions. The contractions locked my muscles to where I couldn’t take another step. I knelt over so I would have less distance to fall when I blacked out, which I was sure was coming soon. I just stayed there looking at my watch. Right before 2:00 I had a big contraction and lost about 30% of my air. Then suddenly my vision cleared. I stood up and started walking again. I was in no pain, my vision was clear, and I had no trouble walking. At 2:20 I decided I had better quit, because this was just too weird. I stopped and sat down on a bench. I had less trouble than usual catching my breath.

I have never duplicated that experience, but since then I have had no trouble breaking 2:00 minutes. My vision well still fad a little before 2:00, but not nearly as much and I’m pretty confident now that it will clear in a few seconds. This has happened to me in wet dynamics too, usually around 60 meters, and I my vision returns to normal in about 5 more meters.

My max dynamic walk now is 2:45 and I have done 30 plus over 2:00. Last week I used my pulse/oximeter and did a 2.26 walk. At 2:26 my O2% was 80% and my pulse was 46. At 80% I’m still way above any risk of passing out from low O2, so I am pretty confident that its not low O2 that is holding me back, but instead CO2. Which means I still have some improvement to go with CO2 tolerance.

Some conclusions I have come too: CO2 tolerance is best achieved by force through apnea with exercise. Dynamic walking has done way more for my CO2 tolerance in statics than CO2 tables ever did. CO2 tolerance is something you have to maintain. I need to do dynamic walking at least once per week to be able to have the ability to go over 2:00 on any day.

Is lactate acid or CO2 tolerance your current stopping point? I don’t know, but in-line with what Erasmus was saying, what better way to find out than dynamic walking. Just take the necessary precautions to insure you don’t injury yourself (soft surface, helmet, etc.) and find out.
Just my 2 cents, take my advise at your own risk!
don

 

[AlanC]

I just did a dynamic session and went past the lactic acid point without any problems. In the first 2 dynamics i trainined fairly intensly doing olympic lifts with a 5kg bar to induce some lactic, due to the intenisty CO2 was high and produced short times 1:07 and 1:27 which is nowhere near near O2 starvation.

I then used an acidic blood, alkaline body water breath up to allow me to do a lot of hyperventilation for my final dynamic so i could start with as low CO2 as possible after the hyper's. I then did 30s walking, 1min stand (in an attempt to lower O2 faster than CO2 production, don't know if this would be the effect or not?)50s oly lifts, by which time by legs where pretty loaded, and then walked to the end of the hold. Total time: 2:28.

It was the contractions that stopped me, a lot more harsh than i'm used to. After the hold i had a very very slight darkening of vision.

So in conclusion still CO2 tolerance improvement to be made which is a bonus!

Thanks,

Alan.

 

[Freediver81]

The relations between Dynamic and Static Apnea!

Hello Guys!

If I am able to do 3.5 minutes static breathold, how much would i be able to do in Dynamic training (meters)?


Thank you?

 

[thud]

Your dynamic time should be 40 to 50% of your static time. That is unless you are using a mono fin, which uses a lot more O2, but propels you faster. With a mono, it’s probably more like 20 to 30% of your static time.

For bi-fins 25 meters is usually in the 18 to 27 second range. Mono fins 14 to 20 seconds. These times are after you master technique and CO2 tolerance. It’s also with good competent spotting.
Drew

 

[Beaky]

Originally posted by Freediver81
If I am able to do 3.5 minutes static breathold, how much would i be able to do in Dynamic training (meters)?

Dynamic is more dependant on your fitness level, so of two people who can to 3.5 minutes static, the one with the better fitness level will generally go further in dynamics. Swimming technique also matters! So there is no good answer to your question, you just have to try and see!

Johnny

 

[neshamah]

hi

You can do marallivas with your 3.5 minutes freediver 81

.. John I agreed with you .. we also need to have a good swimming tecniques -for a better dinamic--- in this case ( the unassisted.)..


Shalom

 

[Freediver81]

Thank you all for your feedback!

Thank you all for your feedback!