increasing the effectiveness of hands free equilisation

[ktreloar]

Hey crew,

Was doing some frc dives the other day to around 20-25m and was trying some different things while handsfree equalising to try and help me use this technique deeper. At the moment im limited to about 15m when using hands free equilising (with a mask) however when i was diving the other day i found that combined with a good mouth fill, if tucked my chin right into my chest i was able to equalise past 20m. Just interested in how deep you guys are going with hands free equalising (Voluntary opening of Eustachian tubes) and what you have found to aid you in going deeper.

Cheers guys

Ktreloar

 

[haughki]

Hi Ktreloar,

I've always been hands free. Very lucky. My deepest dive is 56m, which I did just a few days ago. The equalization was interesting, because it was the first time I ever had any trouble with my ears (my first dives past 40m). I'm finally running out of air to equalize, and I have a less than stellar frenzel: these are the things which I think are making it hard.

So, I think my best advice is: if it's not perfect, get your frenzel technique working really well. I think it can help a lot for hands free at depths approaching/passing residual volume.

What I notice is that, at least for me, if I get even a little behind in the equalization, it can be bad. I will sometimes do a quick hand equalization to catch back up. I think that when I _do_ voluntarily open the eustation tubes, I am only opening them ever-so-slightly. I notice that I often use a little back pressure from my mask to actually equalize; i.e., open the eust. tubes, then blow lightly out of my nose. In the past, I always did this with a Valsalva technique, and I'm having to relearn that.

The point is that the eustachian tube is very narrow and collapsible. If it collapses too much, it's impossible to equalize. Even with hands free, I'm only opening the tube a little, and if it starts to collapse at all, my ability to hands free equalize gets much worse.

One thing I do is equalize a lot. Early and often, as they say. Open and close the tubes a few times for every kick cycle. I've even thought of trying to just hold the tubes open, but I've never actually tried it. Some people really recommend practicing dry equaliztions a lot: ~200 equalizations a day when you're not diving, just to keep your ears and muscles toned and limber.

Also, good diaphram and intercostal stretching will get you more air to work with, and that's always a plus.

In terms of tucking your chin, I'm not sure. I think that for very deep dives, some divers with start to curl forward, partly to slow down a little, and partly to try and get that last little bit of air from the lungs. I don't think that's what you're talking about, though. Assuming you've already got a neutral head position (i.e., you're not looking down toward the bottom), I don't know why tucking your chin would make much of a difference. But, if it works for you, stay with it!

Good luck,
Hawkeye Parker
San Francisco, CA

 

[ktreloar]

hey hawkeye hows it going?

Thanks for the info, i went out today just to test a couple of things and you are right about having to equalise constantly and early. Otherwise no matter how hard you try to open the tubes they wont budge. I was in 8.5m of water today and started to test how easy equalising was first i tried with less equalising and found that it was bending my ear drum wall a bit so next dive i equalised more frequently and had no pain at all. Im also sought of doing frenzel off my mask as well, taking a mouth fill and forcing my tongue up, relaxing pallette and using the force of the mask on my face to help push air in my est. tubes. Seems to be working quite well now, but i think what is key is to keep equalising as often as possible especially in the first 15m of the dive. After that it seems that the equalising isnt as hard.

Thanks

Kyle Treloar

 

[trullalla]

to be honest of all the people that i met who can do btv, nobody is able to do a real mouthfill and use it in combination with btv. the pressure in your mouth would be so much that if you don''t pinch your nose you would lose half the air from your mask.

so i guess that the best thing to do is to do btv until you do your mouthfill, and then switch to frenzel.

and yes, tucking the chin in makes it much easier to equalize.

So, I think my best advice is: if it's not perfect, get your frenzel technique working really well. I think it can help a lot for hands free at depths approaching/passing residual volume.

frenzel and btv are 2 completely different techniques, so i don''t think it makes much sense to say that practising one will make the other easier...

What I notice is that, at least for me, if I get even a little behind in the equalization, it can be bad. I will sometimes do a quick hand equalization to catch back up. I think that when I _do_ voluntarily open the eustation tubes, I am only opening them ever-so-slightly. I notice that I often use a little back pressure from my mask to actually equalize; i.e., open the eust. tubes, then blow lightly out of my nose. In the past, I always did this with a Valsalva technique, and I'm having to relearn that.

''

it''s no possible to do what you are describing by using valsalva...if you do valsalva without pinching your nose basically you are exhaling forcefully wiht the result that air would just flow out of your nose wihtout any pressure buldig up in your mouth causing the eustachian tubes to open, which is the whole point of all the equalization techniques that are using pressurization (such as valsalva and frenzel). now, it might work with frenzel, since lots of people are able to pressurize the mouth even if the nose is not held tightly (by using the pressure of the mask for example).

hope that is clear and that it might help somebody

linda

 

[haughki]

Hi Linda,

I'm assuming you're Linda Paganelli. Thanks very much for replying to this thread. It's an honor to "talk" with you, and I hope I'm lucky enough to dive Dahab someday.

frenzel and btv are 2 completely different techniques, so i don''t think it makes much sense to say that practising one will make the other easier...

Ok, I'm probably mixing some things up here. I've been hands free my whole life; it's only in the last few years that I started to understand how I equalize, and it's certainly a little mysterious to me. I think of Frenzel and Valsalva as different ways of creating air pressure to overcome the "tension" in the Eustachian tubes (to equalize the eardrum), whereas I think of BTV as really just the act of voluntarily opening the Eustachian tubes. Does that make sense, or is it just wrong? In my case, even though I use BTV, I find that I usually need a little extra air pressure to equalize: unless things are perfect, BTV alone isn't quite enough. Maybe I'm not opening the tubes often enough, or maybe I don't open them far enough, but I open them as far as I can, and I'm usually equalizing hands free for the entire dive (unless things go very wrong with my equalization). It was only after I hit 50m and had some trouble that I even thought to touch my nose...

So, in my personal experience, it seems like I have to combine BTV with another equalization technique to work. I feel like I use BTV to open my Eustachian tubes, but I usually use Valsalva or Frenzel to create the bit of extra pressure I need to actually equalize the ear drum. Maybe this is not the ideal of BTV equalization?

to be honest of all the people that i met who can do btv, nobody is able to do a real mouthfill and use it in combination with btv. the pressure in your mouth would be so much that if you don''t pinch your nose you would lose half the air from your mask.

I'm confused. Do you mean that no one you've met can use BTV after he/she hits residual volume? I'm pretty sure that there are divers out there who are hands free even to 90m...?

I hit residual volume somewhere around 25m. After that, I'm reverse packing: drawing air from my lungs so that I can continue to equalize. This is what you mean by "mouthfill," right? I think what I do is I continue to use BTV (i.e., I am hands free), but start using Frenzel to create pressure in my throat and mouth to equalize. This does create some pushing on my mask, but it's very slight and I don't lose any air. And, I don't pinch my nose.

it''s no possible to do what you are describing by using valsalva...if you do valsalva without pinching your nose basically you are exhaling forcefully wiht the result that air would just flow out of your nose wihtout any pressure buldig up in your mouth causing the eustachian tubes to open, which is the whole point of all the equalization techniques that are using pressurization (such as valsalva and frenzel). now, it might work with frenzel, since lots of people are able to pressurize the mouth even if the nose is not held tightly (by using the pressure of the mask for example).

I hear what you are saying. But, again, based on my understanding, I think I am using Valsalva and BTV on almost every dive I do. For the first ~20m of my dive, I use BTV and I don't Frenzel. I let the air pressure from my lungs equalize my ears while I open my Eustachian tubes. Again, there's slight pressure on my mask, but I don't lose any air. The air pressure from my lungs is very high at the beginning of my dive, but I think I control it with my glottis and soft-palate . . . I'm not sure exactly how I do it. But, my best way of describing it is a combination of Valsalva and BTV. What do you think I'm doing?

I hope the tone of my post is not argumentative. I'm really trying to understand these things. Thanks again, Linda, for taking the time to share your experienced opinion.

Hawkeye Parker
San Francisco, CA

 

[Erik]

toit''s no possible to do what you are describing by using valsalva...

Excuse me? The only way I can do hands-free is with Valsalva technique.

Erik

 

[cdavis]

Hi Linda, One day I'll see you in Dahab.

I hate to disagree with one of your experience, but frensel, probably valsalva, and btv go together very nicely. I can't mouthfill, but I can see how it would be theoretically possible to combine mouthfil with btv and frensel on dives well below RV, and still not grab the nose. i. e. mouthfill and then let just a little air from the mouth past the soft pallete. Just enough to allow the same btv/frensel against the mask technique as used in shallower water, repeat as needed.

I'm lucky enough to have big, easy eustachian tubes and valves that open easily and on command. I can do strictly btv if I think about it, but usually do a combination of btv and frenzel (against mask pressure), all hands free. Below 80-90 ft on full lung, I have to grab my nose. Doing the same with valsalva sounds harder and I suspect Hawkeye is doing frenzel instead of valsalva (I thought the same for a long time), but it should be possible.

Hawkeye, your experience is extremely close to mine and I hadn't found anybody else like that. You are just a lot deeper than me. Ah, pathways to more work.

Very very interesting thread.

Connor

 

[azapa]

i can't do BTV and hate you all.....

 

[nostres]

to be honest of all the people that i met who can do btv, nobody is able to do a real mouthfill and use it in combination with btv. the pressure in your mouth would be so much that if you don''t pinch your nose you would lose half the air from your mask.

linda

Linda I do it, I really do. I did 50m+ like this (last mouthfill @ 30m) - only problem is that I can ONLY do it on FIM going down slow. CWT with mono is too fast and I have to pinch, but I can go deeper

 

[trullalla]

hi,

i think a lot of people are confused with the defference between hands free and btv, and with the deifference between mouthfill and reverse packing, thus the misunderstandings.

when you use the pressure of the mask to equalize you are not doing btv, you are doing frenzel, because you are still pressurizing the mouth, by using the mask skirt to close the nose and not your fingers. this is not btv.

as for mouthfill, i said that i never met anybody that can do a REAL mouthfill in combination with btv. a reverse pack is not a mouthfill, and i don''t have any problem believing that you ca do a reverse pack (or a dodgy mouthfill) and still be able to equalize btv OR hands free.

erik, the only way you can do valsalva hands free is by using a noseclip. maybe you forgot to mention that

haughky, sure some people can dive really deep using btv. but they don''t do a mouthfill, just little reverse packs at regular intervals.

linda

 

[fflupo]

..., does this means that on a real btv the pressure on the diaphragm is doing the job?

 

[trullalla]

no, it means that there is no need to apply pressure in order to equalize. you voluntarily open the eustachian tubes and the air travels freely in the middle ear.

 

[trux]

Yes, that's correct, but only in positive depths (there where your lungs are not compressed yet below the residual volume). Once you get into the negative depth, the opening of the tubes by BTV will only suck air from your middle ear out, and will not compensate it. Hence, in negative depths, you have to combine BTV with Frenzel or mouth-fill/Frenzel. This is what for example Martin Stepanek does even at 120+ meters.

 

[cdavis]

Linda and Trux are both right, but, for some of us, btv and frenzel against the mask are a continuum that we are hardly aware of. I can do pure btv in shallow water, say down to 40 ft, no diaphragm movement, no tongue or throat movement, just moving the muscles attached to the Eustachian valves. Below that, I need a little help from frenzel and it gets more with depth. Until I'd thought carefully about it and read a bunch of DB stuff, I wasn't aware of the difference.

Something that is also getting lost here is the extreme variation in equalization mechanisms from one diver to the next. There must be a million different ways to make all the pieces work together to achieve equalization. Trying to define different techniques in narrow terms seems an exercise in finding lots of exceptions to the rule. Most of us can't even describe exactly how we do it and my attempts to teach others never seems to transfer exactly how I do it to somebody else. They get it, but their way, not mine. I even had the depressing experience of teaching someone to do mouthfill when I can't do it myself. Let me know how azapa feels.

Connor

 

[Erik]

erik, the only way you can do valsalva hands free is by using a noseclip. maybe you forgot to mention that

I use my diaphragm to push the air into my head, as opposed to Frenzel if I am hands-free. I don't use a nose clip.
If there's a fancy name for using your diaphragm without pinching off your nose or using Frenzel, that's it.
Cheers,
Erik

 

[trullalla]

I use my diaphragm to push the air into my head, as opposed to Frenzel if I am hands-free. I don't use a nose clip.
If there's a fancy name for using your diaphragm without pinching off your nose or using Frenzel, that's it.
Cheers,

erik, it seems to me that you are confusing the concept of "bringing air up in your mouth" with the concept of ""equalizing"".
frenzel requires 2 phases: 1 phase during which you move air from your lungs into your mouth and then the actual pressurization of this air.
valsalva does it all at the same time. you move air up forcefully and this will pressurize the mouth opening the tubes (since the epiglottis is open and there is no separation between the mouth and the lungs)
btv doesn''t require any pressurization. but you obviously need to have air in your mouth. so you move air up in your mouth and the open the tubes.

bringing air up in your mouth is not called valsalva, but reverse packing. so you reverse pack in your mouth and then you use that air to do your hands free (by using a light frenzel?)
would that describe what you are doing when you equalize?

 

[trullalla]

Yes, that's correct, but only in positive depths (there where your lungs are not compressed yet below the residual volume). Once you get into the negative depth, the opening of the tubes by BTV will only suck air from your middle ear out, and will not compensate it. Hence, in negative depths, you have to combine BTV with Frenzel or mouth-fill/Frenzel. This is what for example Martin Stepanek does even at 120+ meters.

as i said (and you are repeating exactly the same here) people that dive deep on btv need to do several reverse packs at regular intervals.
you call it mouthfill (and i disagree with your choice of terminology).
what we don''t agree with is your combination of btv/frenzel. maybe like erik when you mention the equalization technique you mean ""moving air in your mouth"" in order to use it for btv?

 

[trux]

I think Connor is the closest to the truth - there are far too many nuances and individual differences, to generalize it categorically. Some people do BTV, but it is not sufficient to open the tubes clearly for clearing the ears, so they have to push with a bit of Frenzel. In their case the counter pressure of the mask is usually enough, so that they can do it truly hands-free.

However, basically Frenzel is the maneuver where you increase the pressure in your sinus through the piston action of the tongue. Mouth-fill is the technique you use to shut the sinus-mouth cavity from lungs with sufficient volume of air in the mouth, which allows you to continually increase the pressure (better told, to keep it in balance with the ambient pressure).

Basically though, BTW will allow opening the tubes, which is helpful only as long as the pressure in the sinus-mouth cavity is equal to the ambient pressure. In positive depths, there is no problem and it works all the time. However, some people may need a slight help with a Frenzel or Valsalva maneuver to push through the Eustachian tubes partially open by an imperfect BTV (still without the need to pinch the nose though), at others the opening is big enough to compensate without any additional overpressure.

In negative depths, you simply need to use the Frenzel maneuver to increase the pressure in the sinus to the ambient pressure (or slightly over it). So although, I am just a pure theorist, and not really an experienced deep freediver like you, I insist the pure BTV is simply not sufficient for diving in negative depth, and that you have to combine it with mouth-fill/Frenzel maneuver increasing the pressure to the ambient level.

Even if you use reverse pack, and resits calling it mouth-fill, you'll still use the Frenzel maneuver at some point to increase the pressure, and to achieve the ambient pressure in sinus. There is no other way, because the air you get from lungs through the reverse pack, will be lower than the ambient pressure very quickly. So you can only keep compensating by increasing the pressure. Well to some extent you can use the cheeks, but I think that most people use the tongue more or less anyway.

But then again, I can be completely wrorg. Finally, as I told, I am just an uneducated theorist

 

[mattbigblue]

I must agree with Linda,

I was always wondering how some top athletes can do BTV combined with mouthfill cause for me it is physically impossible. We are talking here about real mouthfill (You extend Your neck - dangerous you might get throat squeeze - bring/pomp as much air as You can into Your cheeks like they want to explode) It's a big pressure inside Your mouth and if You are diving with mask/without nose clip that air will go away through Your nose, simple as that. (someone will say that You can keep that air with soft palate closed, but then You have no access to eustachian tubes and you can't equalise - very often it's a common problem when people learn mouthfill, they have air inside mouth but they can't equalisie, it's because soft palate is NOT in neutral position)

One day someone told me that they don't actually do mouthfill, but whenever they need, they just reverse pack. This way it makes sence, but it's very advanced technique and You have to be very flexible to do that. (risk of lung squeeze if You do that below Your RV depth)

Matt

 

[Erik]

I'm not talking about reverse packing. I'm saying use my diaphragm to push the air into my head, upside down (or right side up for that matter). This is easy until about 20 metres (upside down) at which point if I haven't done a mouthfill, then I would need to reverse pack- which I don't do.

Erik