Is all this insane, or what?

[josedesucre]

I am a spearo and a scuba diver (never at the same time), not a free diver, so please excuse me for asking, but this competitions to see who can deprive his or her brain of oxigen longer seem to me like, well, a little bit too much. Honestly, who can say that holding your breath to the edge of death is healthy? I have always admire the persons able to do this, but the recent accident suffered by Carlos Coste made me think about the whole discipline. I know that I am probably just shaking a wasps nest, but please dont get mad at me. I am just asking, and maybe hoping than someone can convince me that this is not really insane. Thanks.

 

[trux]

Carlos' accident is sad and regrettable, but fortunately it remains one of very few accidents among the the top competitors, and freedivers in general. If you knew little bit the rules and surfacing protocol, you would certainly also know that holding ones breath to the death or black out is definitely not the purpose of the sport. The purpose is to know ones own body, its limits, and being one with the nature. It would help greatly many spearos if they did some freediving training too. Frankly told, there are yearly ten-fold more (possibly many ten-folds more) fatal accidents among spearos, than among pure freedivers/competitors. Though, it is difficult to compare, since there are probably many more spearos than freediving competitors too.

 

[efattah]

Carlos' accident has nothing to do with holding the breath. It was a DCS accident like a scuba diver, from being too deep for too long, and then ascending too fast without 'deco stops.'

So, it had nothing to do with depriving the brain of oxygen from holding the breath. He would have suffered the same accident if he had been breathing from a scuba tank down there.

 

[jome]

Personally I consider freediving to be safer than scuba diving. The only thing that can fail on you is your self. In scuba, you can run out of air, have equipment breaks, go deeper than you really are able to...In short it enables people who don't really know how to behave under water to go there. Kind of like hiking versus driving a car. I'm not talking about good divers, but the tourists - just an accident waiting to happen. For a free diver it is really hard to go deeper than you should. Or if you do, you instantly know you're in "the forbidden zone". To dive deep you have to have enough experience and know your self to also know your limits. A scuba diver easily get's carried away and over confident and can dive to depths where he has absolutely no business diving to. I've seen it so many times. Guys bragging about 100m dives done on compressed air etc. Now that is dangerous...

And if you consider Carlos. That was a world record attempt. Comparable to what these guys are doing with scuba dives to over 300 meters...And the fatality rate in that field is pretty morbid compared to freediving attempts...99.9% of freedivers never attempt to break world records...

But sure, no-limits is dangerous, I would say crazy even. But not any more so than those scuba records for example in my opinnion...

 

[Flojt]

Carlos' accident has nothing to do with holding the breath. It was a DCS accident like a scuba diver, from being too deep for too long, and then ascending too fast without 'deco stops.'

So, it had nothing to do with depriving the brain of oxygen from holding the breath. He would have suffered the same accident if he had been breathing from a scuba tank down there.

Hi to you all
I hope that Carlos is doing better each day now.
But being a frediver and a paramedic, puts me between a rock and a hard place. I want to develope my skills in freediving, to se how long I can learn to hold my breath and how far I can dive, pool and depth.
Like everything else in life it always a BUT in things that it potentionally leathal to do, so is the case with freediving.

I have been freediving in various forms since childhood, and since 1998 more and more organised. These last few years the team that I'm a part of have developed more and more. When we for the first time sat down and drew up the lines for the team, we emphasised the fun part in freediving, next was safety. Being total newbies to freediving and not knowing about AIDA rules and regulations, we based our safty according to basic scubadiving and commonsense. We dowe a whole lot bothe in the sea and on the web, then we found db and AIDA, and started to apply the rules that we found, and added some of our own safety rules.
I our team we have had only one individual, a newbie un-fortunately, that have suffered a LMC.

The most valid prof that we'r doing things good and "relatively" safe is the we, since the Nordic Deep competition in Sweden, Lysekil, now have the national record in Dynamic without fins 114m. That is the thing that gave us in the team the self-confidence, that we'r doing things right.

So what I would like to add to Carlos' accident, to reduce and to some content prevent accidents in freediving. Can we as freediver by the help of maybe Deeperblue.net, talk things over.
I for one dont want to stop freediving, and I want to see how much more mankind can develop the skills of freediving. But how do we do it more safe.

Aharon & MT Solomons have some good regulations when it comes to depth.
To dive deeper is the dicipline that expose the freediver to the most and biggest risk's. To beat record adds more risk and pressure.
In all this it's even harder to do it safe since we'r human and not machines, the body reacts in new ways each day since the "state of the body" aint the same every day.

I hope that some of the 10 000 members can contribute to this issue, How do you dive to minimize the risk?

In the end of the day we all want to hang out with our friends at home and db.net and talk about the great and fun dives we had !

 

[mn.psyc]

Hi to all,
im new to the DB
nice to meet you all

Carlos' accident is sad and regrettable, but fortunately it remains one of very few accidents among the the top competitors, and freedivers in general. If you knew little bit the rules and surfacing protocol, you would certainly also know that holding ones breath to the death or black out is definitely not the purpose of the sport. The purpose is to know ones own body, its limits, and being one with the nature. It would help greatly many spearos if they did some freediving training too. Frankly told, there are yearly ten-fold more (possibly many ten-folds more) fatal accidents among spearos, than among pure freedivers/competitors. Though, it is difficult to compare, since there are probably many more spearos than freediving competitors too.

All that is true, but its also true that there are alot of incidents of LMC and blackout in freediving competitions and even in freediving every day training.
Are you sure that all this has no effect on ones (not only brain ) health ?
Because there are freediving instructors in Greece insisting that those incidents dont hurt our health and are not so dangerous (given we have a buddy in see-pool and survive drowning ).
Could you comment on the following article:
http://www.apneamagazine.com/articolo.php/1539
It surely made some people in Greece much more suspicious

Carlos' accident has nothing to do with holding the breath. It was a DCS accident like a scuba diver, from being too deep for too long, and then ascending too fast without 'deco stops.'

So, it had nothing to do with depriving the brain of oxygen from holding the breath. He would have suffered the same accident if he had been breathing from a scuba tank down there.

Ok, he had a DCS accident after staying too long and ascending too fast.
Do you know the original/initial reason of the accident, the one that made him stay so long so deep?

tnx

 

[josedesucre]

To Jome: Carlos' accident was during what it was supposed to be a "training" session for the world record attempt later. It was just one meter short of the record of 183 meters, but if he had bested the mark, it probably wouldn't have been homologated anyway.

To Wackass: according to Carlos' manager, one of the reasons for the dive lasting so long was a strong current that occurred after he had initiated the dive, and arched (curved?) the rope, creating considerable friction between the rope and the lanyard that allowed him to stay attached to the line. Another reason was that after more than two minutes at -100 meters, he experienced a strong narcosis and was unable to maintain the optimal body position for the ascent, adding to the delay.

 

[cdavis]

Hi Jose,

Good question, although the words you used may not have been the best chosen. From a short term and purely rational viewpoint, it might be hard to see why people push themselves to the edge in this sport. Truly, while we have a fair amount of info that suggests that breathhoding is not dangerous, it may turn out to be damaging in some form. Not enough known to be certain at present. Also, no limits partcularly can look a little luny. No argument.

The answer is in our genes. As a species, we are programed to push the edge. Thats how we came to occupy the whole earth, build civilizations, make carbon fiber fins, go to the moon, etc. Its just us and serves a very important evolutionary purpose that has made humanity the most successful species (for better and worse) on the planet.

I think it would be educational for you to think about how freedivers have incorporated an amazing degree of safety into competitions that harness humanities desire to push the edge. The tiny number of injuries or fatalites, even in no limits, is a tribute to freedivers common sense and caution. Things learned in competition have certainly made for safer diving, for me and many others. Competitions are a good thing, not insane at all.

Thanks for asking. We probably need to think about it every now and then.

Connor

 

[josedesucre]

TRUX: thanks for your answer. In fact I do know a little bit about the rules and protocols, and we spearos use some freedivers techniques all the time. Yes, we also have accidents, and in fact one of my best friends suffered a black out and died during a spearfishing competition. In a way, the situation for spearos participating in a competition is worst, because there is no buddy system nor safety divers to help you in an emergency. You are all by yourself.

 

[josedesucre]

Thank you all for your comments. When I initiated this thread I was afraid that it would elicit some angry responses but so far what the DB community has shown is common sense and understanding.
FLOJT you are right, free diving is potentially lethal, and safety is always relative. But as you said, proper precautions and common sense could help reduce the risks.
CONNOR you are also rights, the answer reside most probably in our genes. Now, if life began in the water, are we really trying to evolve or to devolve? Just kidding!.
I would like to hear some comments about what can be done to improve safety. For instance, just brainstorming: what about banning the use of sleds and limiting the amount of weigh used to descent, maybe do away with the variable weight category, and why not use a "diving bell" or bubble for the freediver to end the ascent at 10 meters and decompress, instead of going all the way to the surface and dive back again to dc. What do you think?

 

[jome]

Personally I consider freediving to be safer than scuba diving. The only thing that can fail on you is your self. In scuba, you can run out of air, have equipment breaks, go deeper than you really are able to...In short it enables people who don't really know how to behave under water to go there.

Quoting my self...A new low I guess.

Anyway, none of that of course applies to no-limits. But personally, I don't consider no-limits really "free" diving. It's more like "tech-diving on a breath hold"...But I do find it cool.

Then again, I don't think diving shallow fun dives with a sled is "no limits" diving...That's just goofing around and having fun. Heh, I'm not probably making much sense...

But as someone already pointed out - perhaps the greatest thing about competitions and records is that they are indeed the main reason for development. Pretty much every discovery regarding safety or performance has come as a result of some "lunatics" pushing the edge and the benefits are available to all divers, regardless of their experience. If we never venture outside the comfort zone, we will never find anything new. And surely the awareness of freedivers on average these days is much better than it was even just a few years ago, regarding safety and such.

 

[josedesucre]

As reported in other thread:

Aidaboard declares 1 oct.-After reports of recent experiences by athletes in the disciplines VW (Variable Weight) and NL (No Limits), the AIDA International Executive Board decided to develop a protocol/guideline for VW/NL/Sleddiving disciplines. This guideline will be developed by a few boardmembers, in close cooperation with a few VW/NL experts and medical professionals and will be presented to the Assembly as soon as possible. In the meantime, the AIDA International Executive Board will be reluctant excepting (accepting?) NL or VW record attempts. Susan Kluytmans Secretary AIDA International Executive Board.

 

[Flojt]

Quoting my self...A new low I guess.

Anyway, none of that of course applies to no-limits. But personally, I don't consider no-limits really "free" diving. It's more like "tech-diving on a breath hold"...But I do find it cool.

Then again, I don't think diving shallow fun dives with a sled is "no limits" diving...That's just goofing around and having fun. Heh, I'm not probably making much sense...

But as someone already pointed out - perhaps the greatest thing about competitions and records is that they are indeed the main reason for development. Pretty much every discovery regarding safety or performance has come as a result of some "lunatics" pushing the edge and the benefits are available to all divers, regardless of their experience. If we never venture outside the comfort zone, we will never find anything new. And surely the awareness of freedivers on average these days is much better than it was even just a few years ago, regarding safety and such.

Hi Jome

It makes sense to me, and I think that te latest statement from AIDA int. has shown that things are developing due to Carlos accident.
I am happy to see that there are very good thoughts about this subject and the level of commonsense is very high and well thought.

Have a nice evening
Flojt

 

[efattah]

Sadly, some people are 'shocked' when they see 'accidents' happening in deep freediving.

It was way back in 2001 when I did my own deep dives that I found out how dangerous it can be. And I tried to warn people of the dangers, but everyone laughed and ignored me. One highly respected AIDA official said that if I have 'problems' during deep dives, then it is my own 'personal physiological problems', that affect 'just me' and 'no one else.'

During deep inhale dives,
- I suffered such extreme narcosis as to stop kicking, start sinking and forget what to do (in the days before lanyards!)
- I suffered freediving DCS at least 10 times, including one time in the chamber

To me it was clear that the solution was to switch to FRC diving, and I also discovered the importance of limiting the ascent rate in freediving (max 5% per second, of pressure change -- the new F1 will display ascent in %/s to control freediving DCS).

Since then, I have had no narcosis and no DCS. I have a good diving ability, and if I did inhale dives with packing I think I could challenge all the records, but I don't even consider it.... why not? RISK !! Clearly to try to break the records with inhale & packing is to invite extreme disasters with narcosis and DCS and lung injuries (over-packing) etc...

People like Sebastien Murat and I have been forced to watch as people go deeper and deeper into the 'danger zone', and, as always, NOTHING ever changes until an accident happens. It doesn't matter how many times you warn people, an accident has to happen for anyone to realize that something is wrong or dangerous.

AIDA has taken the first step in restricting no-limits/variable record attempts, but personally, I think that constant weight attempts should be cancelled/restricted as well. I think that 110m dives in CW with inhale & packing are extremely dangerous (in particular, Guillaume's suicidal ascent rate on his latest record is an extreme risk for DCS...)

In my opinion the only category left which is still safe for inhale+packing is constant weight without fins. Narcosis is limited by the depth of this event, and the ascent rate is automatically limited by the no-fins stroke.

The other deep categories could possibly be done safely with many, complicated precautions, or by diving FRC, but even FRC introduces NEW risks which must be understood as well. So there is no way to dive deep 'simply.'

People think of freediving as 'free' and simple. Unfortunately after a certain depth, freediving becomes complicated like scuba diving. And if you ignore the complications, you can suffer an accident.

As an example of the complications, if I had to 'judge' a deep dive, I would enforce a max of 5%/s ascent rate for the entire ascent (violation = no record) -- and for no limits I would enforce apnea deco stops at 20m, 10m and 5m (as well as upper limits on the time spent below 70m). If the person can't hold their breath through the apnea deco stop, then they abort by breathing from a scuba tank and the record is void. No uncontrolled ascents allowed.

Carlos showed it is possible to do a deep dive of more than 5 minutes. Herbert showed it is possible to 200m+ in about 3'30". So the extra 1'30" can be spent doing apnea deco and doing a slow controlled ascent.

 

[josedesucre]

Eric: I wish AIDA will choose you to be a member of the committee that will write the new rules and protocol. As a former record holder and studious of free diving you deserve it as much as anybody else and I doubt that there will be another three persons in the world that know as much as you do about this sport. In their press release they announce that the rules will be prepared by "a few" members of the board, and that they will invite "a few" experts in these disciplines. Lets wait and see who they are.

 

[Flojt]

Sadly, some people are 'shocked' when they see 'accidents' happening in deep freediving.

It was way back in 2001 when I did my own deep dives that I found out how dangerous it can be. And I tried to warn people of the dangers, but everyone laughed and ignored me. One highly respected AIDA official said that if I have 'problems' during deep dives, then it is my own 'personal physiological problems', that affect 'just me' and 'no one else.'

During deep inhale dives,
- I suffered such extreme narcosis as to stop kicking, start sinking and forget what to do (in the days before lanyards!)
- I suffered freediving DCS at least 10 times, including one time in the chamber

To me it was clear that the solution was to switch to FRC diving, and I also discovered the importance of limiting the ascent rate in freediving (max 5% per second, of pressure change -- the new F1 will display ascent in %/s to control freediving DCS).

Since then, I have had no narcosis and no DCS. I have a good diving ability, and if I did inhale dives with packing I think I could challenge all the records, but I don't even consider it.... why not? RISK !! Clearly to try to break the records with inhale & packing is to invite extreme disasters with narcosis and DCS and lung injuries (over-packing) etc...

People like Sebastien Murat and I have been forced to watch as people go deeper and deeper into the 'danger zone', and, as always, NOTHING ever changes until an accident happens. It doesn't matter how many times you warn people, an accident has to happen for anyone to realize that something is wrong or dangerous.

AIDA has taken the first step in restricting no-limits/variable record attempts, but personally, I think that constant weight attempts should be cancelled/restricted as well. I think that 110m dives in CW with inhale & packing are extremely dangerous (in particular, Guillaume's suicidal ascent rate on his latest record is an extreme risk for DCS...)

In my opinion the only category left which is still safe for inhale+packing is constant weight without fins. Narcosis is limited by the depth of this event, and the ascent rate is automatically limited by the no-fins stroke.

The other deep categories could possibly be done safely with many, complicated precautions, or by diving FRC, but even FRC introduces NEW risks which must be understood as well. So there is no way to dive deep 'simply.'

People think of freediving as 'free' and simple. Unfortunately after a certain depth, freediving becomes complicated like scuba diving. And if you ignore the complications, you can suffer an accident.

As an example of the complications, if I had to 'judge' a deep dive, I would enforce a max of 5%/s ascent rate for the entire ascent (violation = no record) -- and for no limits I would enforce apnea deco stops at 20m, 10m and 5m (as well as upper limits on the time spent below 70m). If the person can't hold their breath through the apnea deco stop, then they abort by breathing from a scuba tank and the record is void. No uncontrolled ascents allowed.

Carlos showed it is possible to do a deep dive of more than 5 minutes. Herbert showed it is possible to 200m+ in about 3'30". So the extra 1'30" can be spent doing apnea deco and doing a slow controlled ascent.

Very well explained and good points about the risk and dangers.
Makes me want to hear more and think more about this, it might be a thing worth talk, think and try.

Eric, could you tell us more about this, maybe make a "diveprofile" for a dive with the suggested ascent rate and the deco stops, the time for them at 20m, 10m and 5m.

thanx in advance

 

[cebaztian]

And I tried to warn people of the dangers, but everyone laughed and ignored me. One highly respected AIDA official said that...

History unfolds in a very complicated way. Many small remarks and incidents can be what leads to action. Aida board members do read and hear about everything and make their decisions based on all this.

For instance the "blue paper" asking for objective LMC rules was surely part of a changing wind and surely had influence on creating the new SP.

But do not expect from Aida to get any credit from your input. Arrogance sort of comes with the aidaboard job ;-)
They sometimes have a slight resemblance with the vatican in their reluctance to admit faults or give credit.

What made way for a temporary ban on NLT VWT was surely because 3-4 countries (individual persons) made a shout in the assembly. Which was answered by some aidaboard members as either ridiculous or uneccesary.

But now its there. And we are all for the better of it.

I think we all are starting to catch up with Eric If not in depth - so in thought.

We might see a future where ALL competitors below 65 breath oxygen at surface (afterwards) and that all dives below 100 in the rules demands direct hyperbaric treatment (just in case). And I am sure someone on the aidaboard read this

Sebastian
Sweden

PS Updated:
http://www.fridykning.se/freediving/features/nolimit.html
Did you know that Tom got stuck at 122 meters once?

 

[Flojt]

I've seen that dive, just a cpl of days after it was posted on youtube.

Hi Seb

First of all, freediving today is safer now than it was 20 years ago and even 2 years ago.

The things Eric talks about is somthing I hope that more freedivers will take time and think about and give their input about it.

I have, since I came home from the Nordic Deep competition in Lysekil, been thinking and researching more about the safety during freediving and competitions.

Since Bill is frequently posting in the forum, I'm sure and hopes that he'll adress this "feed back" from the freediver-community, to the rest of the AIDA board.
I think that the AIDA board have and are working in the best intresst for US freedivers, and that the temporary ban in NLT / VWT, when it's lifted will have some more guidelines for deep diving. Safety before, during and after the dives are a area where the present regulations no more are enough.

Scientist are working more and more to explain how freedivers are able to adapt to depth. But the research about how the pressure, and effects of it, that the body is exposed to during and after the dive, is less. I hope that AIDA will take some time to look into this subject more, regarding the Guidlines for Medics at competitions and record.
What kind of medical personel should be on duty during a competition/record?
What kind of equipment is necessary, who is supposed to organize the equipment and make sure that it's present during the dive?

These things should be considered and developed, and not restrain people from arrange competitions or record attempt.
What are the present Standard Operational Procedures/ Guidelines for a diver suffering LMC/BO/Laryngospasm. Does the SOP for these things need to be adjusted to the latest scientific/medical guidlines ?

I hope to hear more from you all about it, and that regadless credit or not, that we in some way can help our local AIDA and AIDA international to keep develope this sport to a safer and growing sport.


Sayõnara

 

[fcallagy]

The idea of a bell or deco station at 10m with nitrox or similar seems like a possibility for no limits at least as it is no limits. Fair play to eric and sebastian kind of answering the initial question as to why. They/he saw an opportunity to dive a different and safer way through frc. If we had listened to the original ideas we may never have passed 50m. This sport continues to evolve and its amazing to be able to watch and understand it.

 

[trux]

Well, it looks like changes of rules are inevitable, but I am afraid it may have negative effects too. Mandatory deco stops mean more judges (or cameras) under water; mandatory oxygen or even deco chamber mean more equipment and qualified staff - these will cause multiplying the costs of a record attempt or a competition to levels no more affordable for most freedivers or competition organizers.

This again means that more and more freedivers may prefer hunting unofficial records without the supervision of AIDA and without the hassle of the high costs.

So only changing the rules is certainly not sufficient. There must be work done on the field of promotion of the rules, and especially the funding - helping the competitors and organizers to cover the costs. I can imagine this can be a huge problem for all parties involved.

BTW, I wonder how is it today with the funding and with the costs of a record attempt? So for example today's 141m VWT dive of Gianluca Genoni - if he decided to invite AIDA, would he need to pay all the associated costs (flights, hotel, equipment, salaries, food,...) from his pocket, or does AIDA cover the costs or at least a part of it?