Is it unhealthy not do recover between breath-holds?

[thestefanhansen]

The general idea seems to be to have a recovery time about twice as long as the breath-hold (at least when doing static). What is the reason for this? Is it because a shorter recovery time is unhealthy or is it because ones next breath-hold time is likely to be shorter if the recovery time is shorter?

To me, this is an important distinction, as I'm not interested in long breath-holds as such. I'm interested in training in such a way that over time I'll be able to freedive recreationally, with as much time below the water as possible, during e.g. a 2 hour session. To begin with this will just be "advanced snorkeling" with dives down to 10 meters - but many of them, and with as little time breathing on the surface as possible.

If my dives down to 10 m last less than 3 minutes, then there should be little or no risk of decompression sickness, even if I'm only at the surface for 1 second between each dive, and I dive for 2 hours. So with decompression sickness not being an issue, would there be any other HEALTH reasons for having recovery periods between dives?

Thanks!

 

[J Campbell]

The reason for the recover/rest is to allow you body to metabolize any lactic acid buildup, expel excess CO2, and recharge O2. Sure, you can have shorter recovery time, and it won't hurt you, but it will definitely catch up to you as the day progresses. You will tire out quicker and each dive will be short.
Also, 3 mins at 10 meters is an excellant dive time - are you doing that? Hope you have a competent dive buddy!

 

[thestefanhansen]

Thanks, Mark. But what about free radicals? I think I read somewhere that extended apnea flushes the system with free radicals. Isn't that true? And wouldn't that be rather taxing on the system if this happens over 2 hours without much recovery time?

I'm not doing 3 minute dives to 10 meters (yet), but I've read a scientific paper stating that even 3 minute dives to 10 meters repeated 150 times with 0 seconds recovery between each dive does not lead to decompression sickness.

I'm aiming at being able to do 2 minute dives down to 10 meters, with less than 30 seconds at the surface between dives, repeatedly for about 2 hours - IF it's not unhealthy. That should give me plenty of time among fish and close to surface corals, so it's an attractive first aim.

I do not have a dive buddy at this point in time. But that's okay, as I do most of my training alone out of water, and only train in the pool when I have someone to watch me. Whenever I push myself a little in the water I have a friend who is an aspiring doctor by the poolside. Safety first!

 

[J Campbell]

Free radicals - I'm not sure, but I think apnea INCREASES free radicals - a nasty side effect.

"3 minute dives to 10 meters repeated 150 times with 0 seconds recovery between each dive does not lead to decompression sickness." LOL, no this would lead to death!
0 second recovery means your are not getting new oxygen! But seriously, decompression sickness will not be an issue if you are freediving to only 10 meters, regardless of your recovery time.

"I'm aiming at being able to do 2 minute dives down to 10 meters, with less than 30 seconds at the surface between dives, repeatedly for about 2 hours - IF it's not unhealthy." It's not unhealthy, but it's very unlikely that you would ever get this good. I'll bet the best freedivers in the world could not keep up this pace for two hours.
Go by what the experts say, recovery time equal to or greater than dive time.

 

[thestefanhansen]

I think you misunderstand me. If someone dives for 2 minutes, then stays on the surface for 4 minutes, then they are only under water (where the fun is) for 1/3 of the time. So just 40 minutes out of 2 hours. That seems like a "waste of fun time". Then 1 minute diving followed by 1 minute on the surface would be better, as 60 minutes would be under water. My aim is to be able to be under water for as many minutes as possible within a 2 hour period (down to 10 meters) - in a relaxed and non-competitive manner. For this I don't see why it would be necessary to stay above water for 2/3 of the time. I could be wrong, but as I understand it the experts advice about recovery time being twice the dive time seems to be in relation to max dives (competition), and not necessarily relavant for "fun diving".

 

[J Campbell]

Actually, 1 minute underwater is a pretty typical real world dive for spearos and recreational freedivers. My typical dives are about 1 to 1-1/2 minutes and to do that I rest for 3 or 4 minutes. I think that you will find that a 50/50 ratio of top/bottom time is pretty optimistic if you you are doing any kind of movement. If all you want to do is sit on the bottom in shallow water then maybe you can pull of a 50/50 ratio or better. Give it a try, see what you can accomplish.

 

[thestefanhansen]

I see. Thanks!

Today I started doing in house walking/jogging back and forth on one breath, then a short recovery, before doing it again, and again, and... Hopefully that will pay off.

How deep do you dive on average during that 1 to 1 1/2 minute?

 

[Apneaddict]

Branko Peteovic (gifted spear fisherman and talented freak of nature Freediver with 12:00min static) is rumored to spend more time at the bottom (-20m to -30m) than on the surface with 2:00 - 3:00 dives for 2-4 hr dive sessions.

He HAS been treated for the bends / DCS multiple times and has a rib cage / sternum made of jello.

If you can do a 2:00 dive to -10m and 1:00 surface interval for even an hour, you'd be in VERY limited / esteemed company.

A very noble goal to set... But Russian roulette to do by yourself without a vigilant dedicated safety spotter.

Try it dry first and let us know how that goes.

 

[J Campbell]

Stefan - I like to dive in the 20-30 foot range, deep enough to see and find a lot of interesting stuff but shallow enough to give you decent bottom time - as opposed to deep 60 foot dives where you have to head back to the top almost as soon as you hit the bottom.

 

[thestefanhansen]

Thanks, Ap.ad. I will try to read more about him.

I do not want to break any records, and I do not want to get the bends. Not even once. So I'll stay well within the "decompression limits" as specified be the scientific lit. No Russian Roulette for me, thank you.

For now, I'm sticking to dry apnea walking/jogging. I'm still experimenting, but so far 40 seconds walk/jog (~40-50 meters) followed by 20 seconds of breathing, repeated again and again and... seems to work nicely.

That sounds pretty nice, Mark. Hopefully I'll be able to do that in the foreseeable future.

 

[Simos]

If you don't allow enough time to recover, you will very likely black out on a seemingly 'easy' dive so be careful...

 

[thestefanhansen]

If my SaO2 never drops below 80 % then I will not black out even after many repeated dives, will I?

 

[Simos]

If my SaO2 never drops below 80 % then I will not black out even after many repeated dives, will I?

I don't know if there is a magic % above which you don't BO but if you accumulate lactic for example, in your next dive your O2 might drop much faster than usual due to the oxygen debt you have accumulated (if that makes sense?) so you might BO early during the dive...

 

[Kars]

You're thinking too much in numbers - also in other posts -, shift your focus on relaxation, technique, rhythm, the fish, feelings.

In freediving you want to move slow and automated, not driving and micromanaging your muscles and thoughts.

So spend an hour with a buddy improving your duckdive, to become easy, lazy, and automated. Then let go and explore and enjoy the water, hunting etc.

Feel, recognise and celebrate the smallest improvements, for beginners there are plenty.
Let go of hastening "progress". This focus blinds you from the real values you're bound to discover. I promise when you let go of the numbers - leave the watch at home - you'll learn and know. And what you learn is likely to change much of your view on life.


Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[thestefanhansen]

I didn't know that, Simos. Thanks.

Kars, you sound like a poet of freediving. And what you just wrote rings so true. I'll take it to heaet. Thanks a million.

 

[anthropisces]

If my SaO2 never drops below 80 % then I will not black out even after many repeated dives, will I?

our

Blackout is a complex phenomenon that is influenced by many factors. Based on your posts I think you are at a high risk for blackout. Don't take that as an offense but rather consider that we are discussing physiology (and psychology).

I recommend you take a couple of freediving classes and be ready for the process of maturation as a diver to take years. People online will recommend things that are less likely to preserve your life. It is better for you to understand the basics and then get exposure to the ways that some people experiment with diversions from those basics.

If you dive alone you are engaging in a different sport than I am. To me the buddy system and freediving are inseparable.

 

[Tony Babowicz]

Thanks, Ap.ad. I will try to read more about him.

I do not want to break any records, and I do not want to get the bends. Not even once. So I'll stay well within the "decompression limits" as specified be the scientific lit. No Russian Roulette for me, thank you.

For now, I'm sticking to dry apnea walking/jogging. I'm still experimenting, but so far 40 seconds walk/jog (~40-50 meters) followed by 20 seconds of breathing, repeated again and again and... seems to work nicely.

That sounds pretty nice, Mark. Hopefully I'll be able to do that in the foreseeable future.

I was not aware of decompression limits as specified in scientific lit. for freediving. Can you post a link for this?
Thanks

 

[kronek67]

I'm glad Simos mentioned the Blackouts. I was starting to get worried. For me, the biggest reason for the surface interval is to reduce your risk of blacking out. Ones you black out, your done for the day, and that is if you have a buddy to keep you from drowning. I would rather spend 2/3 of my time on the surface than all of it underwater if you know what I mean.

Kars is dead on too. My best dives are unplanned. Now if I want to dive deep or long, I don't plan it. I let my dive buddies know that I may go deep or long so they can be prepared for it. Then I just dive, if it feels good, I keep going. Next thing I know, I just did one of my best dives and enjoyed it. If I decide up front that I'm diving to say 80ft, I end up turning back at 30 ft for some reason. So now, the only planning is for my spotters so that they can be prepared for my dive.

 

[cdavis]

What Kars said.

You are reading way too much into what you have read without the water time to judge how it applies to you.

DCS is not an issue in 10 m, with any normal diving profile. Black out is the major danger for what you propose, I have very nearly B0ed twice doing exactly what you propose in only 5 meters. Too short a surface interval will kill you.

There are two ways to approach bottom time, as long as possible on one dive, combined with a long surface interval or a very short dive with a very short surface interval. The latter will give you the longest total time underwater, but it may not really be what you are after. To provide some numbers (remember, numbers are EXTREMELY person specific and you will certainly have different ones), I used to do scouting dives of 45 seconds in around 10 meters with a surface interval of somewhat less than 45 seconds and could do that without strain for a long time. Add 15 seconds to the dive and triple the surface interval. Add another 15 and double the surface interval again.

There are some ways to safely reduce surface interval for a given dive time, like diving FRC, but those things take considerable training and practice.

Connor

 

[growingupninja]

If you have the conditioning, physiology, and technique to do serial dives with a very short surface interval, CO2 build-up will become a factor--typically manifests as a headache, dizziness, and impaired judgement. Not a very safe way to dive and the raging headache will start to make it unfun. If the diver becomes hypoxic (likesay O2 sat drops below 96%) lactic acid will start to become a factor and surface interval time climbs dramatically.

But again, numbers are individual--some big lung/strong dive response divers can easily do relaxed dives of 2 or 3 minutes before their O2 sat gets into the mid-nineties. Other divers will be in mid-nineties in well under a minute.... And again, even the big lung divers will need to vent CO2 or deal with consequences of extremely elevated CO2.