it's raining enclosed tracks!

[spaghetti]

I remember a few months ago we were discussing how difficult (if ever possible) it was to find a cheap yet reliable industrially manufactured (not to say mass produced) enclosed track "euro" speargun.

Now we have at least two: the Omer Cayman ET, and the Mako ET. I'm interested by both. I'd like to hear some opinions and reviews on how they perform asap.

The Omer is interesting, cause the first ET gun ever made by a european manufacturer, exploring the territory of a mostly american type of weapon with the "plus" of the italian excellence in functional design. (play the drums and trumpets now :t).
I've seen it at online stores (not yet in real shops) and it's cheaper than I'd ever thought.
The Mako is interesting, because the project has been developed with the help of our dear friend and DB forum member Tin Man, which makes sure that the project has been carried on with the genuine loving care of a truly passionate craftsman (taht is Tin Man). Drums and trumpets again, pls. :t

Here's some shots of the Mako in development, that Tin Man kindly sent to me, and some shots of the Omer Cayman ET.

Omer:

 

[spaghetti]

And Mako/Tin Man (with his friend Grisworld)

 

[azapa]

yummy! interesting design differences between the two:
OMER
+ the whole thing appears metal, no plastic guide. Should be more ridgid
- "whoooooooshing" sound as metal spear clatters down metal guide

Maco: exact reverse: silent but less ridgid.


Price: well i love the regular Cayman at 82 euros, would I pay 144 euros for the ET? Not sure.

Omersub CAYMAN E.T. Speargun

 

[spaghetti]

Price: well i love the regular Cayman at 82 euros, would I pay 144 euros for the ET? Not sure.

Omersub CAYMAN E.T. Speargun

Sure, but Cayman ET is still cheaper than the Cayman HF: that's what surprised me!

From pictures (and from pictures it's easy to misjudge) I notice the shape difference, and my first thought is: european Omer has a more hydrodynamic shape, because it's the european mentality that spearguns must have a smooth side tracking first of all. The american Mako looks like it has mor mass and probably (just guessing) a barrell with thicker walls, as it's the american mentality that guns must be able to handle extra power first of all.

But, again, from pictures what do I know really?

 

[azapa]

i have never tried an enclose track gun so am completely ignorant here, but I can't help but wonder if it would not spoil the instinctive spear-fish-spear-fish sighting experience that is so important for quick shots?

the handle looks nicer that the regular cayman too, the trigger seems stainless steel (mine is plastic, can never polish that for a smooth break..)

 

[Tin Man]

Thanks for the kind words Spaghetti. I can't comment on the Cayman, but I can share a little bit about how the Mako design came to be what it is. In my view, every design is a compromize between competing priorities (strength vs. weight, etc.). Sometimes the compromise that works best for one set of conditions is less than optimal for others, but here goes:

First, we were trying to keep cost down by making the Mako barrel interchangeable with their existing handles and muzzles. That keeps production costs down, which keeps the selling price lower. It even allows someone with an existing Mako gun to change to the ET model simply by purchasing a replacement barrel.

We also wanted to keep the barrel shape relatively simple because this will be a prominent feature on the line of hybrid guns that we are developing. The simple barrel profile makes fabrication of a hybrid easy, requiring only a custom shaped router bit to inset the barrel into the wood.

One thing that we considered is that dive conditions can change quickly from reef to open water and back. The high density polythylene track is quiet, as you said, and has outstanding impact resistance. So if the situation requires a shot down into a hole, the thrashing fish is very unlikely to damage the barrel or track if the shaft fails to completely clear the gun. The low friction and high impact strength of HDPE also mean that the track will stand up well to hard wire or articulating wishbones that can wear wood and carbon fiber over time. And the use of an extruded HDPE track means that custom colors are available (currently blue, green, and black) to match the different gun color schemes.

I will be the first to say that I don't view an enclosed track gun as completely "superior" to open track guns. It's just another tool in the toolbox, that some people will prefer and others will not. In the end, it's just about having as many choices as possible available, so you can pick what suits you best.

 

[spaghetti]

I will be the first to say that I don't view an enclosed track gun as completely "superior" to open track guns. It's just another tool in the toolbox, that some people will prefer and others will not. In the end, it's just about having as many choices as possible available, so you can pick what suits you best.

Thanks Tin Man. Nice job and nice post.

Since as I said earlier we european spearfishers have no experience with ET spearguns, I still have to understand what they suit best for compared to other guns. I reckon it's for heavier shafts? Or is there more to it?
This is unexplored territory for me. But I like the idea of "another tool in the toolbox".

By the way, you prove yourself to be a true gentleman for not jumping onto and against the "competitor's" gun. I had no doubt about your fairness and honesty, but Kudos for that anyway.

 

[Tin Man]

I think the first thing that people notice with a properly constructed ET gun is the way you can reload quickly, by feel, without ever taking your eyes off the target. It is easy to guide the rear end of the spar into the front of the track, and then after that, you just slide it down until it clicks into the mech. It can't fall off the rail, and the shark fins that stick up through the top of the track keep it from rotating. The line does not need to be wrapped over the shaft, so again, it can be wrapped almost entirely by feel. With just a little practice, you can reload quickly, while still watching where the rest of the fish went.

I do find that enclosed tracks tend to be quieter than rail guns where the rail is part of the aluminum tube. Some say that water supports the shaft, but a plastic track (either open or enclosed) sure seems quieter to me.

As for increased power, Eh, maybe. Maybe not. Yes, an enclosed track lets you use more band power, but this ET gun is still pretty light in weight compared to a typical wooden enclosed track gun. At some point, more power just gives you recoil and accuracy problems. But I think it does allow you to use the same amount of power on a thinner shaft, which some people like.

 

[foxfish]

As for increased power, Eh, maybe. Maybe not. Yes, an enclosed track lets you use more band power, but this ET gun is still pretty light in weight compared to a typical wooden enclosed track gun. At some point, more power just gives you recoil and accuracy problems. But I think it does allow you to use the same amount of power on a thinner shaft, which some people like.

Thanks Tin Man...
Well that's why I like using these guns because I can fire a thin spear with a thick band!

 

[foxfish]

I think 150 Euros for the omer is a great price, how much for the Mako ET?

 

[Tin Man]

It depends on the length and color scheme, but the the website lists a 110cm black model for $345 (260 Euros) fully rigged with shaft, bands, line, etc.

 

[foxfish]

OK sounds reasonable for Americans but, might add up with postage to Europe.
I would like to own both really LOL

 

[hau]

spaghetti--This is in response to your question about ET pipe guns.
I have over 600 hours in the water exclusively with ET pipe guns in the last year. (thank you Tin Man, Griswold and Dano )
I kayak freedive spearfish in Miami Florida 150days a year with ET pipe guns and will soon be selling off all my non-ET pipe guns and replacing them with ET pipe guns. As some may recall, I wrote this over a year ago on another forum.
"brothers--
I prefer a pipe gun for lots of reasons and would prefer an enclosed track pipe gun for many more reasons. But it is just my humble preference.
For me, an enclosed track pipe gun would:
1. Faster to reload. Many times I have to load my spear shaft fast without taking my eyes off a fish or spot below. It is easier to just start the shaft into the end of the enclosed track barrel, slide it into the mech, pull a band back and drop down to the fish again.
2. There is no reason that a shaft coming out of an enclosed track is LESS accurate than a shaft off of a rail and probably there is more evidence of an enclosed track shot shaft being MORE accurate.
3. Protect my spear shaft from injury while the shaft is in the gun. Less scratches and dings to the spear shaft "enclosed" in the track.
4. I pretty much grew up spearin with enclosed track homemade 6f wood guns in the GOM and got used to an enclosed track gun
5. An enclosed track pipe gun would be very fast and easy to freeshaft with.
This is just SOME of the reasons I personally prefer an "enclosed track pipe gun"
Again, just my humble preference."
I hope this is helpful

PS--spaghetti-the ET gun pictured in your 2nd post has killed A LOT of fish here in Miami

 

[pinoycatfish]

i think E.T(enclosed track) pipe guns are good but will it not destroy your E.T. if you shot a fish at too close a range and not a kill shot or if fish is in hole??? just wondering. still would love to have one

 

[popgun pete]

Spears tend to rub on tracks during loading and shooting, so any enclosed metal track will pick up scratches from minor particulates that find their way into the barrel groove and any marks or imperfections on the shaft. The anodizing will gradually be removed from the interior of the track, although this may only be a cosmetic problem. I think a plastic enclosed track which slides into the gun stock is preferable as if it is damaged then it can be replaced. I have a Metaltech with a plastic enclosed track, but it is a heavy gun as it emulates the deep stock of the Riffe wooden guns and is a bit of a paddle, hence a slim eurogun with a track will fill another niche in the market. The Omer enclosed track gun will have required more tooling changes as the handle and muzzle have to connect up to that special barrel cross section, so you would expect it to be expensive to produce. Different spear diameters may not be so easy to accommodate in the one gun with an integral metal barrel enclosed track, whereas with a plastic enclosed track you can just change the tracks to suit, but minor shaft diameter changes may be OK in the same track.

 

[popgun pete]

Enclosed tracks mean that you have to consider particle contamination if a cocked gun is dropped onto a sandy bottom. The whole idea behind the simple tube gun is that it can operate in all environments. Essentially a slingshot or catapult, with no guide track the shaft is only supported at the muzzle and the sear box of the trigger mechanism and hence the opportunities for sand to jam anywhere are few. Once you have a track of any sort you have more opportunities for sand to get between the spear and the track. On "open track" guns the line contact between spear and gun is very small and sand can generally be swept away by swinging the gun around, plus sand will fall away as the gun is moved through the water. Once the guide track wraps more of the shaft circumference the opportunities for sand particles to be trapped between them both are increased. The ultimate enclosed track gun is a pneumatic speargun, but the piston keeps sand out and the inner barrel is only exposed to sand penetration when the gun is cocked, plus the entry point for sand is restricted to the muzzle openings. On an enclosed track band gun you have a long slot right along the barrel for sand to get in, so you need to consider the operating conditions under which the gun will be used. If you negotiate the surf zone on a rough day then your gun often gets suspended sand particles washed over and through it, something to consider when using a band gun with an enclosed track.

 

[foxfish]

You make some interesting points Pete however the idea of some sand getting into my track & causing problems seems pretty remote to me.

 

[MTcatchbag]

yummy! interesting design differences between the two:
OMER
+ the whole thing appears metal, no plastic guide. Should be more ridgid
- "whoooooooshing" sound as metal spear clatters down metal guide

Maco: exact reverse: silent but less ridgid.


Price: well i love the regular Cayman at 82 euros, would I pay 144 euros for the ET? Not sure.

Omersub CAYMAN E.T. Speargun

G'day I'm a noob to deeper blue and have moved from Sydney Aus to London UK. :head

Like the look of both guns and would love both but just need one for now!

Have set my heart on an Omer et but can't for the life of me find a stockist of the gun. The omer home seems to not have an online checkout.

Do I need to email them to try to get one??

 

[Ol Dirty Diver]

Have set my heart on an Omer et but can't for the life of me find a stockist of the gun. The omer home seems to not have an online checkout.

Do I need to email them to try to get one??

Not on the market yet. A few websites are offering them already, but this is just in preparation. I've been told they won't be available until March. Release was supposed to happen now, but in the interest of product "perfection" they have had to reconfigure their manufacturing molds to allow a greater shaft diameter. This was in response to an observation made of the prototype that while it fits the stock shaft now (6.75mm), the tolerance might be too tight if the shaft was slightly bent (a very realistic and well-pointed out concern). With the update of the mold the new track may be able to accommodate 7mm or even 7.5mm shafts. This modification should also be agreeable to those concerned with the potential issue of sand getting between the shaft and track as was just pointed out in recent posts.

 

[MTcatchbag]

Ok so I'm not as big an idiot as I thought! I'll keep an eye out for a release date!

Thanks much! Can't wait to get in the water again!!