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LED torches - modifying (FaMi)

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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portinfer

Aquatic shopper...
Jul 3, 2003
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Couldn't find a section just on torches / lights (maybe need a new one ?)

For night freediving (and other activities) I bought a FaMi power 40 some years ago.

It's small, well built and quite powerful... at least that's what I thought until I started to look into the new 'breed' of LED emmitters.

I think that the FaMi has three Luxeon LED's with some optical cones to focus them.

Has anyone modified theirs to take advantage of newer LED's ?

Some of the new ones (and I'm not really up on this but there are XR-E's and XP-G's etc) are seriously bright and I am keen to increase light output.

Also has anyone changed their power supply in these torches from 4 x AA (NiMh) to Li-ion (maybe 18650 cells ?)

Thanks,
Ed
 
Ed, I suggest you sell it to "The Bodger" (AKA Tom) and join me in the purchase of a PT shockwave LED 400. Maybe ask santa nicely.

Dave.
 
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I think that the original FaMi had 3 x Luxeons with an actual output of about 150 lumens (I'm sure Tom will correct me on this).

The PT 400 probably has 3 x P4's ? with a guessed actual output of maybe 300 lumens ?

What is exciting is the P7's are rated at 900 lumens (but actual is 700). These give more of a flood.
XP-G's are meant to be about 300 lumens and more of a spot beam.

Maybe a combo of the two could be good?

3 x XP-G = about 900 lumens
3 x P7 = 2100 lumens (and just floody light everywhere)
1 x P7 + 1 x XP-G = very bright short range flood with a central spot at distance ?

Basically any commercial dive torch is going to be waaay behind what is actually currently available in LED technology.
 
"The PT 400 probably has 3 x P4's ? with a guessed actual output of maybe 300 lumens"

The PT Shockwave 400 is called thus as it produces 4oo lumens - allegedly :head.

I used to think that the 150 lumens was as much as I wanted or needed but i have come around to the idea of the more the merrier.

I wonder though if you do come to a point where enough is enough and any more might be too much especially up close. Too much might cause the backscatter to reduce vis or even cause your pupils to contract and spoil your "night2 vision. just a thought.

Dave.
 
Right, here goes.

Your current Fami is probably about 200, using luxeons as you say.

And yes, I'd agree the Shockwave 400 probably using SSC P4's, which can do up to 200 lumens each when driven hard, but they're likely to be toned down in a plastic bodied dive torch because of heat problems (which I'll come on to later) so 400 may be about right.

P7's and MC-E's produce more light, but it's harder to focus as the emitter die is larger (it's effectively 4 leds in one package), hence leading to more flood. Flood is fine for a dive light in good viz, but when it gets murky it can be a liablity as you get horrendus backscatter from all the illuminated particles in the water. That said you do still get a spot with P7 types as long as you're using a decent reflector, as you see when you come round on Friday Ed.

Thing is it's not as simple as just opening the torch and changing the led's mate. You've got to consider all sorts of things, not limited to the volatge requirements of the led's. They all differ. Your Fami will be driven. That means it will have a regulator between the batteries and the leds that controls the power going to the leds. Change the leds and you'll probably need to change the driver, and you'll have to take into account the power source.

Your FAMI runs of 4 AA's, so presuming (they may not be, may be 2S2P) they are in parrallel you'll have 6 volts to play with, so it may be using a buck or boost driver, if you change the leds it will definately need a boost driver of the right power to keep the leds running at max.

It's pretty complicated to work it all out, I don't understand it, it's related to the volatge forward of each led not just their required input.

And regardless of the electrical side the main issue with high powered led's is heat management.

In metal bodied dive torches the heat is easily managed as they conduct it into the water as long as they are mounted on a decent heat sink which is in good contact with the body to provide a good thermal path.

However plastic bodied torches like the PT will always struggle with this problem, and it's possible that the PT 400 is about as high as that design will go. UK had an interesting solution in one of their eLED light cannons whereby they had a tube in the middle on the lens with the inside open to the water and the leds were mounted on the outside of the tube so they were cooled. All pretty complicated and susceptible to damage and leaking though.

You can get dive torches with single P7's and MC-E's, both cheaply from China DealExtreme: $81.00 Diving Cree SSC-P7-C-SXO 3-Mode 900-Lumen LED Flashlight Kit (2*18650/4*CR123A/4*16340)(I've got one of each) or pretty expensive but much better built from a few proper dive torch people like Barbolight Barbolight U15D Flashlight in Underwater Lights,Rechargeable torches from Simply Scuba.

BUT, all that said, upgrading what you've got will not be easy, there's no way your 4 AA's, or however many 18650 lithiums you could fit in the same place, would have enough power for 3 P7's to run for a full dive, and you wouldn't fit 3 P7's in that head anyway, not without hacking the cr*p our of your reflectors which would ruin them.

Fitting 3 XP-G S2's may be doable (if you can find some to buy, XR-E Q5s are easier to get), indeed that's exactly what I wanted to do with my SeacSuc X-Led, but I fell at the first hurdle of opening the head with the leds in! Can't work it out at all, only option I have left is to pump air into it until the pressure makes the glass lens pop out!
 
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Lumens can be a bit misleading , it's a measure of how bright the torch is in all directions . What you really need is a measurement of usable light or lux , this is the light that reaches something and is reflected back to your eyes . ( You can tell I'm reading this from a magazine , far too clever for me . )
They tested ten under £250 torches , the Shockwave came equal first for brightness with two others , one of which has a lumen rating of 1000 ( see , misleading ) .
It also had by far the longest burntime and was the third cheapest of the ten tested .
The only concerns raised were about the weight ( 930g ) , and the switch mechanism ( could be improved ) .
Of the ten on test , I'd have to say the Shockwave seems the best one for spearing ,
It's the brightest , has more than the necessary burntime for a spearing session ( some don't ) and it's cheap .
 
Quite right Dave, but lumens is the only widely used rating you generally get.

As you say, it takes into no account how efficient a torches reflector is, or what light profile it produces be it flood, spot a mixture of both and what angle.

Also many quote the maximum an led can produce, but do not provide it with the juice to do it. An XR-E Q5 will do something like 225 lumens at 1.4amps, but at 1a it will be more like 140, and at 500ma, 80 (very rough estimates off the top of me head).

And to top it all, many will just exagerate because they can and no one pulls them up on it.

Nothing like getting a light in your hand and directly comparing it.

For the money, I'd go for the Shockwave too, if it wasn't so boring :trofl

I built an underwater case for one of these, LED Lenser X21 Torch : Professional LED Torches : Maplin, which kicks the ars* of the P7 and MC-E lights at they're claimed 600 and 900 lumens. Unfortunately it overheated in it's case and burnt out 2 of the leds :headDoh. Led lenser replaced it no questions asked though (fortunately!).
 
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Great input Maggers. More info than I ever wanted to know :head.

Think I'll stick to being boring though, Oh! and catching fish using my boring torch.

When will this weather improve? I wanna go night diving.

Dave.
 
No time soon by the looks of it :-(

Definately want a look at your 400 when Father Christmas has visited, see how it comapres :)
 
Maggers you might want to study some of the Marine fishkeeping forums as there is great debate about colour spectrum's & Parr readings - parr is the way they measure the penetrative effectiveness of light at depth in salt water!
LEDs at 6500k seem to be in favour at the moment but there also seems to be a move toward the blue spectrum at around 10000k especially for the new generation LEDs
 
Will have a crack at opening up the FaMi.
New stuff all the time : SST-50
About 600 lumen max at 1.75A and about 1200 lumen at 3.6A but not a quad like the P7...
Will check out your stock tomorrow Tom :)
(BTW Found a plumbing related bodge for the bike lights - 22mm pipe clips :))
 
Try the SST-90 Ed, over 2000.....

Bring yer Fami round tomorrow, will be interesting to properly compare it to the SeacSub.

Mart, I'm failing to understand the stuff about the drivers as it is, I don't need further confusing! Parrs can stay being small salmon for now rofl
 
Specification of the new PT 400 looks impressive. This is from PT themselves.

I note they say you can use rechaegable batteries. Not seen that before. Maybe the electronics recognise the lower voltage rechargables and compensate or is that reading too much into it. Some products accept a variable input ie 12 .... 40 volt but have the same performance whatever due to some clever step down electronic transformer type trickery.

Burn time is for the lower power setting but is better than the 170 and that's impressive.

3 Maxbright Luxeon Rebel LED’s? That mean anything?

Dave

•Power – 400 Lumens
•Lamp – 3 Maxbright Luxeon Rebel LED’s
•Beam Distance – 175m
•Burn Time – 20 Hours
•Batteries – 8-C Alkaline (Included)
•Waterproof – Level 3
•Light Colour – Pure White
•UL Rating – APPROVED
•Class I, Division 2
•Groups A, B, C & D
•UL Temp Code – T4
Features:

•Polycarbonate Construction
•2 Brightness Levels – High/Low
•Focused Wide Beam
•10,000 Hour LED Life
•Impact Resistant
•Rocker Switch to Turn On/Off
•Switch Locking Mechanism
•Pistol Style Grip
•Compatible with Rechargeable NiCad or NiMH Batteries
•Waterproof to 100 Metres
•Includes Wrist Lanyard
•Lifetime Warranty
Measurements:

•6.5" (Long) x 6" (High) x 3" (Head Diameter) | 16.5cm x 15.2cm x 7.6cm
•37.91oz | 1075g (With Batteries
 
Ah it uses the Rebel led eh, of course. I don't know much about the rebel except that Princetontec use it in the latest iteration of their best headlamp, the Apex. They claim 130 lumens out of that, so 3 x 130= 390, probably where the 400 comes from.

Yes, it's likely to have a boost driver in there to maintain a constant output throughout the battery life. That will also compensate for the lower input of nimh's.
 
I'm guessing (just a guess) that you could use the old case from the PT that you are upgrading from and strip out all the internal gubbins and replace that with some bog standard (but up to date) led voodoo for not much money at all.
Would be limitations on heat sinks etc but could probably make a nice bright (3 x 250 lumen emitters) slightly floody torch for clearer water winter diving.
Can probably get some decent sized rechargeable lithiums in the case of that size too ?

Will be looking for the crowbar for the fami later ...
Ed
 
I found this on a fishkeeping forum.....
"In fact despite anecdotal claims passed around within the aquarium hobby; in better funded tests outside the aquarium industry show that many stony corals, clams, and other sessile species that depend on photosynthesis of zooanthellic algae not only thrive but also propagate with light that achieves the optimum PAR, which is generally found around 6400K, not the higher Kelvin ratings so often put forth (Higher Kelvin outputs are required for tanks deeper than 36 inches to achieve maximum PAR, although high intensity 6400 SHO lamps can generally penetrate deep tanks well).
To be even more blunt studies show necessary as although a lamp with more “blue” such as a 20,000 K MH will penetrate more deeply (due to the fact that infrared light gets absorbed the deeper the light must penetrate), in all but the very deepest aquariums this 20,000 K MH is simply not needed.
So in shallow tanks the PAR rating required can be met with daylight bulbs of around 6-7000k but in deep tanks the higher PAR levels can only be met with 10,000k & above.
The penetrative ability's of 20,000k in deep tanks will instantly be visible & you can expect very noticeable improvements in coral growth.


I dont know if you guys know the colour temperature of the bulbs you use but it might be interesting?
 
Just in case anyone's interested I have completely changed the internals of my SeacSub X-Led now.

It used to run 3 luxeon III leds run through resistors. Now it runs 4 Cree xp-g leds through Ledil GT4 optics off a Fatman constant current driver.

Xp-g (r5) are capable of over 400 lumens each, but that's a a current of around 1.3 amps. Because I needed decent runtime from the 8aa's in this torch I turned the current down, using the fatman driver, to about 700ma. Theoretically this means around 250 lumens each.

But, losing out on a bit through inefficiencies and my terrible soldering it's probably around 800 total. I've decided this will be a light mainly for filming so i want a good flood beam with little hotspot so avoid flaring so the optic I used provides a very floody beam. This means it doesn't seem astoundingly bright BUT it lights a massive area.

Here's some pics of the modding. The white circuit board is the driver from here: TaskLED Home and the led board and optics came from: http://www.cutter.com.au/index.php
 

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Here's a a before and after beamshot from my garden. As I said, the point with this one is not to be a light cannon but provide a bright smooth flood.

I've got plans for something that should have twice the output of this one and have a tighter beam, but I'm waiting on OMD's lathing skills for a key part of that one :)
 

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