Let's discuss those muscles... again...

[ShallowGuy]

Right,

I know this topic has been brought up on many occasions son DB (I guess I went through most of them), but still I have questions I have no answer for...

I know big muscles are a big no-no for freediving.

Now, does the same applies to average but rather strong muscles?

I used to train power lifting (on very amateur level) and I still do some weights training. I use rather big weights but never for a sake of pumping muscles. Wii this still undermine my freediving?

How about body-weight training? Wouldn't be similar?

I know Matt Malina was squatting something around 100kg but he didn't notice any negative effect on his performance since taking over weight training (or am I wrong?).

I know one of the downsides of weight training might be poor performance on freediving training the other day or perhaps general over-train of body. But apart from that?

Thanks for any answers.

 

[hteas]

The big muscles are not going to help, but unless you are getting ready for a world record, I doubt they will interfere to any great extent. Just don't do so much that they interfere withy your freediving.

 

[Kars]

I think having muscle mass can be advantage, provided you also learn how to deeply relax them and bring their metabolism down.

Just look at the WR record men, they are all equipped with good strong muscles, so surely it's not a disadvantage, when you know how to use them.

Body-weight training - is that like training at a 'fat-burning' Heart rate? In case it is, you do not need that.

 

[growingupninja]

I think if you are going to training for muscle mass it is important to also train for flexibility. It is definitely possible to have to both but many body-builders neglect it because it doesn't show. I don't have literature or links but I want to say muscles 'pay for themselves' to a certain extent in freediving because increased muscle mass also leads to increased blood plasma and hemoglobin.

 

[Apneaddict]

I haven't been in the gym for a hypertrophic workout in 9-12 mos and my apnea ability increased during that time.

The less I workout, the better my apnea performances.

Having said that, I do some muscle conditioning and lactic tolerance stuff before a comp.

I'm still on the strong / muscular side compared to most freedivers... So keep that in mind.

Scrawny and weak isn't the key... But bulky and overly muscular isn't either.

Be streamlined, yet also strong, while retaining flexibility.

 

[ShallowGuy]

Thanks for all great replies, appreciate them.

I'm definitely far from bulked guy. My muscles are small comparing to average guy using similar weights.

So more specific question is:

Does only muscles size should be concern for freediver or also its "density". After all if you have ability to lift rather big weights yet your muscles are smallish you still have something in your muscles which makes them stronger than average. Density is probably not a word for this.... So does muscle mass is simply a size or it is also about their density...

@Kars by body-weight training I meant using your body resistance for strength training - such as push ups, chin ups, pull ups or abs exercises (crunches and all that).

I'm working on my flexibility, I guess freediving increased my overall fitness.

 

[Apneaddict]

Thanks for all great replies, appreciate them.

I'm definitely far from bulked guy. My muscles are small comparing to average guy using similar weights.

So more specific question is:

Does only muscles size should be concern for freediver or also its "density". After all if you have ability to lift rather big weights yet your muscles are smallish you still have something in your muscles which makes them stronger than average. Density is probably not a word for this.... So does muscle mass is simply a size or it is also about their density...

@Kars by body-weight training I meant using your body resistance for strength training - such as push ups, chin ups, pull ups or abs exercises (crunches and all that).

I'm working on my flexibility, I guess freediving increased my overall fitness.

Strength matters and helps.
I know a diver that has a good breath hold, but isn't strong and as such can't swim fast. Her dynamics are shorter than they could be if only she could speed up. Her muscles don't have the strength / capacity to move her faster at this point.

It also helps in terms of increasing your overall conditioning. If you can leg-extension the entire weight stack 100 times... you likely won't get leg burn with a monofin.

Strength will only help you in freediving.

I am fast in FIM, because I have upper body strength and rope-burned myself at my first FIM comp dive... LOL

Being strong and having efficient muscles is important / helps for almost all athletic endeavours.

Strength may or may not be holding you back at this point however. 2 yrs ago I was WAY over-strong for what was useful for freediving, so it was not my weak link.

Figure out what yours is and work on that for the best results. Once addressed, figure out your NEW weak link.

Rinse and repeat.

 

[ShallowGuy]

I am fast in FIM, because I have upper body strength and rope-burned myself at my first FIM comp dive... LOL

I guess I will remember this quote forever, haha.

Now, let's be more specific.

What, in your opinion guys, would be more beneficial for freediving:

1) Smaller weights - more reps
2) Bigger weights - less reps

The same question applies to the pace. What could be more beneficial: fast reps or slow ones?

Oh man, the more I learn about freediving the less I know.

 

[growingupninja]

Eh, your question is a little vague. Fast reps+light weights would typically raise HR, and depending on the exercise could lead to an increase in VO2 max. This is typically considered undesirable for top level apnea, since a rise in VO2 max is thought to raise baseline metabolism. In reality, for most divers, and especially spearos, increased fitness is going to help them in the ocean as long as they don't neglect their apnea training. Freediving is a very specific sport. Weights can be good for conditioning, but it is very hard to approximate the physiological conditions (lactic acid) that divers undergo during a strenuous dive when on dry land. Personally, I like kettlebells at a weight where I am doing 2 or 3 sets of 8-10 reps of various exercises. But while I'm not too shabby at depth, I am really conditioning to hunt in conditions where a certain amount of overall strength and power is more beneficial than max apnea potential, and I am frequently doing dozens of drops anywhere between 10M to 25M in a day--not one max attempt.

 

[MikkoP]

After I started doing heavy squats, deadlifts etc., my dynamic went from 200m+ to 250m+. The thing is that stronger and bigger muscles have more anaerobic capacity. They have more creatine which you can use for energy without consuming any oxygen. The same thing with lactic acid production and tolerance - bigger and stronger muscles are better at those. Producing lactic acid doesn't require any oxygen either.
Of course, bigger muscles also consume more oxygen, but there is a loophole around that: a strong diving reflex. With strong MDR you can reduce the amount of blood and thus oxygen the muscles receive, which leads them to use more anaerobic resources, which in turn leaves more oxygen to be used for the brain. All in all, this leads to a longer dive.

About training, I think it's useful to train maximum strength with compound exercises (deep squat, deadlift, bench press, overhead press, barbell row, etc.) with low rep range, for example 5x5. This way you can train your muscles to be as strong as they can, relative to their size.
Another thing which I have found useful are longer series, for example 20 reps for 3 sets (3x20) with various exercises. This in turn trains the muscles to produce lots of lactic acid and deal with it.
Repetition range I would avoid at all costs is the famous 8-12 hypertrophic bodybuilding range. Doing sets like 3x10 is pretty much useless. You'll get big muscles that aren't particularly strong for their size and don't handle lactic acid particularly well. In short, all show no go.

 

[Kars]

It's a pity I cannot like your post more then 1x Mikko! - Great info!

 

[growingupninja]

About training, I think it's useful to train maximum strength with compound exercises (deep squat, deadlift, bench press, overhead press, barbell row, etc.) with low rep range, for example 5x5. This way you can train your muscles to be as strong as they can, relative to their size.
Another thing which I have found useful are longer series, for example 20 reps for 3 sets (3x20) with various exercises. This in turn trains the muscles to produce lots of lactic acid and deal with it.
Repetition range I would avoid at all costs is the famous 8-12 hypertrophic bodybuilding range. Doing sets like 3x10 is pretty much useless. You'll get big muscles that aren't particularly strong for their size and don't handle lactic acid particularly well. In short, all show no go.

Interesting on the reps. I have felt like I get lactic acid tolerance out of kettlebells, but it is probably closer to your longer series of reps since I am doing the exercises continuously--ie 8 swings right side, 8 swings left side, 8 clean and press right, 8 clean and press left, break, then next set. I do think you absolutely have to supplement the weights with actual diving though, or the exercise is of diminished effectiveness.

 

[MikkoP]

I do think you absolutely have to supplement the weights with actual diving though, or the exercise is of diminished effectiveness.

Yes, certainly. Adding some weight lifting to your training schedule, along with all the in-water training and other apnea, becomes helpful only after you find that lack of O2 has become the limiting factor for you (or lactic acid tolerance), your results have hit a plateau and adding more or different kind of apnea specific training doesn't seem to help anymore. At that point, in addition to weight lifting, it might also be a good idea to do some sprint training (swimming, finswimming, running).

 

[Bussard]

I agree that strength is very important, I know 2 guys who can't get much at all out of their breath hold abilities, as much as they are, because each stroke/kick just lacks power.

I came to apnea already quite strong, fairly well muscled. I still do weight workouts, but over the course of a year I'll stop for 2-3 months and do only apnea (prep for competitions, max attempts etc.) rest for a few weeks, do 2-3 months combined weights and apnea.

 

[Ms Mer]

Go for lean muscle mass - bigger, bulkier muscles consume more energy as a few have already alluded to. You want to have sufficient strength in the muscles that do a lot of work. Flexibility and core strength are important. I'd also ensure that I worked on all the breathing and accessory breathing muscles to improve function. Diaphragm is obvious, but also subclavius, pec major and minor, serratus interior. I know that ones I have tightness and trigger points in currently are scalenes, SCM, plus the intercostals as I've probably not been doing enough work on them. So incorporating stretching as well as strength training into your routine is really helpful.

Functional training seems to be the way things are headed with most sports training now.