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Long Live Free Speach! Not!
- Thread starterQUETZAL
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
There are plenty of other websites people can go on to yell at eachother: techdive list, rec.scuba, Spearboard, ect.
DB has mosly stayed above that and even the disagreements that people have had never degenerate into the kind of name calling that you see on those sites, and we had in that thread. That's one of the reasons that many of us stick with this site and drifted away from ther others- less profanity and more usable information.
I would hate to see this site just spiral downward to the name calling drivel that gets posted elsewhere.
Jon
DB has mosly stayed above that and even the disagreements that people have had never degenerate into the kind of name calling that you see on those sites, and we had in that thread. That's one of the reasons that many of us stick with this site and drifted away from ther others- less profanity and more usable information.
I would hate to see this site just spiral downward to the name calling drivel that gets posted elsewhere.
Jon
I'm with you on the yelling and name calling part but I don't believe my post was inflamatory. In fact I think a valid question was raised and never answered before the post was closed so I will repost it here. for the reference see the post on the 400 lb grouper.
"There is a similar rule here, key word possession. And they call them Bangsticks not PH's. But I had always been told that you could use a PH, Bangstick, to kill say a shark but could not bring him home, just personal protection I guess. I'm sure there is something to learn/understand here, because I know Headhunter is following the rules so someone please enlighten me/us."
http://www.dnr.state.sc.us/etc/rule...saltfishing.pdf
"There is a similar rule here, key word possession. And they call them Bangsticks not PH's. But I had always been told that you could use a PH, Bangstick, to kill say a shark but could not bring him home, just personal protection I guess. I'm sure there is something to learn/understand here, because I know Headhunter is following the rules so someone please enlighten me/us."
http://www.dnr.state.sc.us/etc/rule...saltfishing.pdf
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I can see why it was closed, but I was a bit disappointed too. After that mod from Spearboard made the statement that you can get your questions dealt with there and your threads will not be deleted, I pointed out one of mine that was deleted just two days ago. I notice that while he posted again, he never responded to me.
What is funny is that since any dissent from the party line is stifled on SB, people are feeling they want to get it off there chest elsewhere, and then SB seems to be dispatching missionaries to quench the fires.
In my case, I asked a simple question about how deep was deep enough in chasing fish that used to be in the shallows, and I got the usual treatment. So out of frustration, I asked members of Freedivelist what they thought of the subject. If Spearboard members would have simply been willing to discuss it with me, it would never have occurred to me to post to FDL, and I think we see a similar spillover to DeeperBlue. Many members of FDL took positions saying that they saw no harm and explained why, but without getting nasty. They actually helped change my mind. Now, one of the most strident voices of SB has subscribed to FDL and in his introductory post, announced his intention to "debate me into the ground" about the damage I cause to the international image of spearfishing after he gets back from officiating a weekend spearfishing tournament. The FDL members, like people here, have already discussed it all they want to discuss it, so I've resolved to avoid responding to the guy when he returns. It will be interesting to see is he has read the automatic welcome letter that he received when he subscribed. That letter lays out the rules including prohibitions on personal attacks and name calling, and he seldom communicates in any other fashion if he disagrees with anyone.
What is funny is that since any dissent from the party line is stifled on SB, people are feeling they want to get it off there chest elsewhere, and then SB seems to be dispatching missionaries to quench the fires.
In my case, I asked a simple question about how deep was deep enough in chasing fish that used to be in the shallows, and I got the usual treatment. So out of frustration, I asked members of Freedivelist what they thought of the subject. If Spearboard members would have simply been willing to discuss it with me, it would never have occurred to me to post to FDL, and I think we see a similar spillover to DeeperBlue. Many members of FDL took positions saying that they saw no harm and explained why, but without getting nasty. They actually helped change my mind. Now, one of the most strident voices of SB has subscribed to FDL and in his introductory post, announced his intention to "debate me into the ground" about the damage I cause to the international image of spearfishing after he gets back from officiating a weekend spearfishing tournament. The FDL members, like people here, have already discussed it all they want to discuss it, so I've resolved to avoid responding to the guy when he returns. It will be interesting to see is he has read the automatic welcome letter that he received when he subscribed. That letter lays out the rules including prohibitions on personal attacks and name calling, and he seldom communicates in any other fashion if he disagrees with anyone.
Im not going to flame here but I will answer some questions directly(Im sure this will be removed soon...
"Since this forum has a bit wider POV"-Bill M.
Well Bill, it doesnt. Just check out the hard line here....
"Spearfishing is not a hobby, it's a way of life. those that can, Spearfish. those that can't scuba."_Amphib
And thats from a mod. Funny how few pics and stories Ive seen from him over the years?. I ask you again Amphib, wheres the challenge in spearing large tuna that swim 20' down 10' from you? Ask Miles how it goes. Ive done it like that to. The world record bluefin was shot point blank on the surface... In fact, most of my big wahoo were shot from the surface, is it sporting because I dont use tanks? In fact Bill the only reply you will get to anything different here is...it should be illegal, or it is immoral, ect.
"but still calling the forum is dead and turning away should not be the action to take."-Murat
Murat, my friend, you have been a joy to watch grow over the last several years. God I didnt like you at first but you have come along way!
You have shown me how much people can change for the better, become more tolerant and understand geographic, and cultural differences. Maybe I just need to vacate for a while.
Queztal, using a PH is legal in federal waters. They were well outside of state waters. Good question though.
I will check this for constructive replies but otherwise not post unless directly asked of. I can also be reached at rigdvr@gmail.com
Safe hunting to all.
Spending more time with fish and less with fishermen,
Mike Freeman
"Since this forum has a bit wider POV"-Bill M.
Well Bill, it doesnt. Just check out the hard line here....
"Spearfishing is not a hobby, it's a way of life. those that can, Spearfish. those that can't scuba."_Amphib
And thats from a mod. Funny how few pics and stories Ive seen from him over the years?. I ask you again Amphib, wheres the challenge in spearing large tuna that swim 20' down 10' from you? Ask Miles how it goes. Ive done it like that to. The world record bluefin was shot point blank on the surface... In fact, most of my big wahoo were shot from the surface, is it sporting because I dont use tanks? In fact Bill the only reply you will get to anything different here is...it should be illegal, or it is immoral, ect.
"but still calling the forum is dead and turning away should not be the action to take."-Murat
Murat, my friend, you have been a joy to watch grow over the last several years. God I didnt like you at first but you have come along way!
You have shown me how much people can change for the better, become more tolerant and understand geographic, and cultural differences. Maybe I just need to vacate for a while.Queztal, using a PH is legal in federal waters. They were well outside of state waters. Good question though.
I will check this for constructive replies but otherwise not post unless directly asked of. I can also be reached at rigdvr@gmail.com
Safe hunting to all.
Spending more time with fish and less with fishermen,
Mike Freeman
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Bill McIntyre said:
Bill, the Warsaw grouper has never been a shallow water fish. You might have got one in shallow and occasionally we see them above 200' but check any source on fish biology and you will see that they are and always have been a deepwater grouper, just like snowy's and yellowegde, ect. That is why your post ignited. You insinuated that those guys have chased these fish from the reefs to the dark abyss when it isnt so.
As for the FDL rules, it is only fair to point out that you to have been removed from the list for a time for failure to comply so be careful about calling others out.
To the mods, I do not feel this is a "slam" on Bill. If he feels the need to point out to everyone here that others are going to be subject to governing rules, he should also be willing to share that he has broken them as well, paid the consequences and moved on. This does not make him a lesser man and it would not make anyone else.
rigdvr said:
Well, I still find that the place has a wider POV, if for no other reason than that it has lots of contributers from around the world rather than being dominated by people from one section of the US, but I suppose what is more important is how the points of view are expressed. Maybe I just haven't been reading the right forums here, but I almost never see anyone saying "you're an asshole," posting cute little "SHUT UP" signs, or making physical threats. Calling spearfishing immoral or saying it should be illegal is indeed a strong statement of opinion, but I seldom see people step over the line and attack the person himself. There is a subtle difference between attacking a person's opinion and attacking the person himself, and admittedly its hard to draw the line sometimes, but my subjective perception is still that this is a place more tolerant of diversity of opinion.
But maybe that's just because I didn't make the mistake here of blundering into political discussions about Bush and his war, so there are still some who will not respond to a statement by me that the sky is blue today with a reply like "shut up you troll, and quit making trouble."
rigdvr said:
Thanks for that info. It might have helped if you or someone would have been willing to say that very thing on Spearboard, but of course no one would. All I got was SHUT UP.
Yep, I broke a rule banning political speech, and I was well aware of the rule since I had served a term as list manager and been in charge of enforcing the rules myself. Someone from Australia made a snide comment about Bush about three months before the election, and I bit and enlarged upon it. The list manager, who actually despised Bush even more than I did, still did his job and gave me a time out until the day after the election, and I concurred. He and I both knew that I felt so strongly about this subject that it would be better for me to be removed from temptation.
An important point to note here is that the list manager enforced the rules impartially, no matter what his personal feelings. On Spearboard, there are different rules for different people, and the moderators even engage in the flaming.
In any case, you will know from your own experience that about half the posts on Spearboard would be grounds for suspension or exile from FDL. I would gladly live by FDL rules on Spearboard. On FDL, if someone attacks me personally I can sit tight knowing that the list manager will be contacting him privately. On Spearboard, I know that its open season and anything goes, so I often respond in kind even though I should know better.
I concur.
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I must admit that when its about freediving hunting vs scuba hunting we sound like football team holigans and fight immediately starts :ko
Mike,
As being a very young and new to the sport is valid excuses to be ignorant and making some funny or nonsense comments(by the way i still young and newbie rofl ). Hovewer its a stage that everybody had in the begining. I even lough myself when looking my old posts.I don't know may be because of this i am more tolerated against people especially the begineers. I know how it feels like to be....
If people start to see froums as a tool to gain knowledge which will save from us lots of trouble and wasting money, then there will not be any arguments like these.I log in everday to deeperblue to see what everybody did, how was their diving, listening a bit of humor etc etc...I don't like to fight even in real life so why should i fight in net? Fighting in net is pointless and cause depression to others. I don't understand how some of us gets excitement while fighting in the net with a person they did not even know about him. It seems like those people discharge theirs stress in those public forums (not many of those in deeperblue, thanks god).
Last words,put aside those sensitive topics which no one will win at the end of the day and keep your energy for spearing and post the stories/pictures to the dedicated section so we can talk more about hunting than those depressing threads. Good deal, isn't it?
Mike,
As being a very young and new to the sport is valid excuses to be ignorant and making some funny or nonsense comments(by the way i still young
and newbie rofl ). Hovewer its a stage that everybody had in the begining. I even lough myself when looking my old posts.I don't know may be because of this i am more tolerated against people especially the begineers. I know how it feels like to be....If people start to see froums as a tool to gain knowledge which will save from us lots of trouble and wasting money, then there will not be any arguments like these.I log in everday to deeperblue to see what everybody did, how was their diving, listening a bit of humor etc etc...I don't like to fight even in real life so why should i fight in net? Fighting in net is pointless and cause depression to others. I don't understand how some of us gets excitement while fighting in the net with a person they did not even know about him. It seems like those people discharge theirs stress in those public forums (not many of those in deeperblue, thanks god).
Last words,put aside those sensitive topics which no one will win at the end of the day and keep your energy for spearing and post the stories/pictures to the dedicated section so we can talk more about hunting than those depressing threads. Good deal, isn't it?
Rather than post, I mostly "lurk and learn". I don't have the experience to be giving advice on diving/spearfishing. I just have to say something on this subject.
There is a lot of great information on both this and Spearboard. People like me, who have limited experience and or oportunity can maximize their learning curve by reading these forums.
That said, this forum is MUCH MORE TOLERENT of diverse opinions than is Spearboard. I don't think that it is worthwhile to post anything that intends to open a dialog in order to seek greater understanding on Spearboard unless you stay away from ANYTHING to do with ETHICS. If we only talk about technical stuff or laude achievements we seem to be ok.
I think that this lack of ability to have CIVIL discourse, dialog,discussion, and DISAGREEMENT is a major problem in our society today. Please let us exercise restraint, good judgement, and some manners. Open discussions so that we can explore issues...............
$20.00 in words to put in my $.02
Jim Calvinperez
Sebastopol, CA.
There is a lot of great information on both this and Spearboard. People like me, who have limited experience and or oportunity can maximize their learning curve by reading these forums.
That said, this forum is MUCH MORE TOLERENT of diverse opinions than is Spearboard. I don't think that it is worthwhile to post anything that intends to open a dialog in order to seek greater understanding on Spearboard unless you stay away from ANYTHING to do with ETHICS. If we only talk about technical stuff or laude achievements we seem to be ok.
I think that this lack of ability to have CIVIL discourse, dialog,discussion, and DISAGREEMENT is a major problem in our society today. Please let us exercise restraint, good judgement, and some manners. Open discussions so that we can explore issues...............
$20.00 in words to put in my $.02
Jim Calvinperez
Sebastopol, CA.
Bill McIntyre said:
Bill can you not see that when you state that we have run these "once shallow groupers to the deep" that you act as if you know their biology. Instead of looking into it, you make assumptions and pass it of as knowledge. Thats why you get jumped on so much over their, not your views. We had our words in the past and got over it Bill, but I have to admit that most of your posts that aren't helping a newb use a tone and wording that is like smiling at someone while you slap them. It is this wording that people don't like. You are just as bad about jumping people as others there that jump you(I do think it gets out of hand from both ends and thats why I choose not to fully participate there either).
AS for the tolerance, I guess Ive been reading a different forum.
wonder if I can set the record for most posts removed in one day without using profanity or such....
if the mod that deleted my last post would like to explain what the problem is I would appreciate it.
This message will self destruct in 10 seconds should you choose to accept this mission....
if the mod that deleted my last post would like to explain what the problem is I would appreciate it.
This message will self destruct in 10 seconds should you choose to accept this mission....
rigdvr said:
For what its worth, I got to read it in the email notification, and I'm not sure why it would be removed either. I suppose one good reason would be that they are tired of seeing us fight our spearboard battles here instead of there. Of course I've previously said that no one will answer there and I even get my threads pulled, so I can't discuss it there.
But answering your comments specifically (until they cut us off completely
), I'm not a marine biologist and I don't think I should be required to go read a book to answer my own question when I have experts so readily at hand. I honestly know that I shot one in shallow water, and I honestly have the impression it was common to do so back then, even if I'm wrong. If people who know better could have set me straight with some facts that they have more readily at hand, then I wish they had done so.
rigdvr said:Bill, which mod deleted it so I might contact them privately...I've had run ins with more than one today
Congratulations! Its good to see someone taking up the slack.
But I don't know how to tell which one deleted it.
BTW, I just read a letter to the editor from Scott rebutting some asshole columnist who said Dan was cowardly when shooting that warsaw, laying out the danger and difficulty he endured, and inviting the columnist to put on multiple tanks and try it if he thought it was so cowardly. My first impulse was to say "right on, I sure hope they print it." In fact I typed something like that out, but then deleted it before hitting "submit reply" because I was almost certain some idiot would accuse me of trolling because he is convinced that anything I say on that thread is against Dan, motherhood, and apple pie, even though I never questioned his preparation, technical expertise, or balls.
I suppose I do bring it on myself with tortured comparisons to the bravery and technical expertise of Neil Armstrong, but sometimes I wish I could require remedial reading for some of these guys.
Oops, there I am talking down to them again.
It's funny to watch the "tolerant" lefties and the "PETA" types, who are unable to tolerate anything else but their own ideas. Then they end up violating TOS rules which they often purport to enforce and then go on whining about the "freedom of speech".
I take it back, it's not funny ... it's disgusting to watch.
It seems there is no longer a place where one can discuss one's hobbies, or favored sports, without stumbling over the verbal diarhea of the Bush haters and the freaky animal rights crowd.
I take it back, it's not funny ... it's disgusting to watch.
It seems there is no longer a place where one can discuss one's hobbies, or favored sports, without stumbling over the verbal diarhea of the Bush haters and the freaky animal rights crowd.
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