Lunocet vs. Dol-fin

[finSailor]

It has been rare situation that people have had a change to test different monofins. My initiative is shortly: let’s gather some comparisons here, shall we? Please @Ted Ciamillo, @Apneaddict and @REVAN , no marketing stuff in this thread, please allow end users to compare these magnificent products.

See threads ’Extreme Dolphinism G2’ and ’Lunocet Pro 2015’ for more information about fins. Also ’Swimming&Diving With Lunocet Monofin’ - thread contain some user experiences.

I’d like start and share first quick and dirty notes about comparison of Lunocet and Dol-fin. Unfortunately, I have not personally had a change to test Dol-fin. Moreover, this is not a proper comparison, since there was years between dives. Also, I'm just a beginner, so I trust testing to more experienced free divers. However, one has to start somewhere.

I’ve had a Lunocet Pro 2015 last 6 months or so. My Luno seems to be the only one in our circles (in Finland), due to fact that others who have ordered one never got a fin, during last 1-2 years.

Luckily my diving companions are experienced freedivers and one of the guys had an opportunity to test Dol-fin ORCA, in Okinawa in 2010. The same Dol-fin was used few hours later by Natalia Molchanova. My ’tester’ was pretty high in DYN world ranking at the time.



He used my Luno in 25m pool for a while, abt. 30 mins or so, abt. a week ago. The Luno was in middle stiffness settings (2 pins). Shoes were basic Shimano road shoes, not very stiff soles, quite medium.

Here are his immediate comments (notes taken by me and translated to english)
- Luno has slightly more drag than Orca
- Orca has a longer glide period. Luno has quite a glide too, but shorter.
- Luno has better acceleration and manoeuvrability
- Orca is more sensitive to kicking errors, both are sensitive compared to GlideFin
- Luno and Orca are superior over GlideFin in smaller movements (just ankle), with Glidefin those small movements are useless.

What he emphasised later was that Orca and Luno can’t ’handle' strong kick as well as Glidefin - they stop converting downward power to forward movement at some point, while there seems to be no limit in Glidefin. How much this matters in considering O2 consumption vs. achieved meters, remains to be tested later.

All in all, he described Luno being 'in the middle' between Orca and Glidefin, all having good sides.

Please share your comparisons, folks! I challenge Philip to organize comparison of Dol-Fin Pilot2 and Lunocet Pro 2015 in his swimming club!

 

[Philip Fennell]

Please share your comparisons, folks! I challenge Philip to organize comparison of Dol-Fin Pilot2 and Lunocet Pro 2015 in his swimming club!

Challenge accepted.

 

[neurodoc]

This sounds interesting! I'd love to read a comparison; it would be even better to try them all out side by side. I'm a certified monofin addict and would love to try different fins. Perhaps at a freediving class or something? My other monofins have been Waterway Nemo, Waterway carbon Glide in addition to the Lunocets I have. I've never seen or tried an Orca or Pilot but have read about them/watched videos.

 

[Philip Fennell]

This sounds interesting! I'd love to read a comparison; it would be even better to try them all out side by side. I'm a certified monofin addict and would love to try different fins. Perhaps at a freediving class or something? My other monofins have been Waterway Nemo, Waterway carbon Glide in addition to the Lunocets I have. I've never seen or tried an Orca or Pilot but have read about them/watched videos.

In the back of my mind I've the idea to organises a "Festival of Fins", at the club I go to, so that everyone could have a go at something. Old monos, new monos, bifins (plastic and carbon). For the Lunocets and DOL-Fins you'd want a few second hand cycling shoes of different sizes and some extra insoles for padding them out. May be, one day, given the right circumstances that might happen.

 

[neurodoc]

I like that idea, Philip. We all get very used to the fins we have, and it would be valuable to experience other fins, if even just to understand the other person's experiences better. Plus, it would be nice to meet more users in person of course!

 

[cdavis]

Thanks fin sailor, very interesting.

"- Luno has slightly more drag than Orca
- Orca has a longer glide period. Luno has quite a glide too, but shorter.
- Luno has better acceleration and manoeuvrability
- Orca is more sensitive to kicking errors, both are sensitive compared to GlideFin
- Luno and Orca are superior over GlideFin in smaller movements (just ankle), with Glidefin those small movements are useless."

Most of that makes a lot of sense to me. The glide and drag comments sound right on, given the Orcas streamlined cowl, thinner foil and smaller blade surface. I had looked at every video I could find and it seemed like the Luno's glide was slightly less than my fin, but I wasn't sure, glad to have that confirmed. Ankle kicks that work so well for my fin never worked for me with any traditional mono. The Monoflap came closest. I'd be real curious about a comparison(between the two foil fins) of any small amplitude kicking that did not include undulation.

What did he mean by "kicking errors"? For sure both foil fins are much more sensitive to uneven kicks than a traditional mono. Does he include other types of bad technique? If so, what.

Luno having better maneuverability surprises me. I would have expected the Luno's greater surface area to make it less maneuverable. What exactly did he mean?

 

[finSailor]

I got an impression that kicking errors meant uneven kicks.

Better maneuverability was linked to the ability to accelerate, and probably (my guess) the width of the fin, which was significant in Orca?

 

[neurodoc]

I think kicking errors would mean uneven kicks or out-of-sync kicks left and right foot. This happens to me when I'm tired, as I have a few degrees of lateral spinal curvature. I know when it happens because I get the fin off-level. This is easier to correct with the Luno than the Glide, though I think either can get off level.

 

[cdavis]

The uneven kick thing has bedeviled me with my Dol-fin but I never noticed it with a traditional mono.

Maneuverability is something I'm very very interested in. My Dol-fin(an x-18) is so much more agile than a traditional mono (maybe not quite the same thing as maneuverability?). That is the major feature that makes it possible to use a foil fin for my kind of diving. For me, it is the ability to make small adjustments of trim and direction that comes close to bifins. If the Luno is even better(more research needed here), I'm extremely interested.

Its possible that the distance between the toes and the foil is important in maneuverability(also acceleration). My x18 is considerably shorter than an Ocra, not sure about the Luno.

 

[HydroApprentice]

I witnessed the same for my X-20. I had sometimes troubles to keep the fin leveled during the glide. I hope to get to the pool soon, and get to the bottom of this (no pun intended [emoji6]). But it's a great pointer to improve technique further.

 

[baiyoke]

As much as I have an aversion participating in a thread entitled with a direct comparison between two named fins - the Lunocet (the aversion business like) and the dolfin - my love for experimental fin development and my interest and curiosity in foil-fin technology maked this interesting.... Also I'd have to admit that there are not a lot of foil-fins out there. This is however allready a more general comparison between three different fins and technology (so far hyperfin is included also) and I think that is a good thing for comparison. I'd prefere a different title, but enough of that. To the point:


In general I think Finsailors points are pretty straightforward close to what could be expected in differences, and make sense. That is actually surprising because in general there's also a ton of factors that could be misleading, to mention a few; The time in between "test", lack of number of testers, short time of testing, body type of this tester, technique preferences for this tester, lack of more objective efficiency test etc. etc. etc. However I guess some things are easier to recognize and some things are harder.


Fx if it was said that the cycling shoes where more comfortable than very tight hyperfin footpockets I would accept the notion pretty straight forward (allthough still quite subjective). Same thing with ease of transportation or similar...


But when talking about wich is "better" or more "effecient" it is much more complicated. An "overall" ranking I think is the most difficult one to judge, or in other words the one that makes the least sense, or at least the most complex one. There are so many factors I think;

- Application/purpose

- body type,

- diving-technique – preferred and others mastered.

- experience (a more experience tester is good for some things, but what if the purchasers are beginners, and need hat knowledge...)


Plus judging according to purpose:
-Is it for DYN?
- CWT?
- Recreational (advanced)?
- Recreational (beginner/fun)?

And what about things like

- durability

- comfort,

- ease of transportation etc.

Very complex with an overall rating. I like the job ahead comparing stuff. And I think that comparison is what we need. However good comparison is soooooo hard to get by... Unfortunately.


I'd also like to point out that effectiveness is a really strange and troublesome thing to assess subjectively. I'll post a short example after this post.


So, to be a bit more specific about the points being made, two short comments:

- The things about foil not being able to handle strong kicks are partly right. (The following is written in huge respect for how complex aerodynamic science is, and knowing I fight to understand it). Because of a relatively fixed angle of attack, when you kick hard, you change the angle of attack because water flows too faste in the opposite directio of the kick. So my guess is the foil will stall. But this I think is old knowledge from the fishes: Fish that need accaleration have those big monofin like caudal fins. Speed and efficiency calls for a more foil like caudal fin to avoid drag.


- About maneuverability it seems to many things. I would guess that the higher the aspect-ratio of the fin, the easier to make small adjusting movements, but still to compare turning and stuff like recreational ”fun”-dive like adjustments it is probably best to try things out. Maneuverability seems like a troublesome concept to theorize, but probably easy to feel for the single diver doing his thing.

I witnessed the same for my X-20. I had sometimes troubles to keep the fin leveled during the glide. I hope to get to the pool soon, and get to the bottom of this (no pun intended [emoji6]). But it's a great pointer to improve technique further.

Hydroapprentice the lower drag can make it more sensitive an able to move like that I think. Was it without a neckweight (wasn't it you who didn't have a neckweight), because added front-weight could help a lot there.

 

[baiyoke]

The thing regarding efficiency that I mentioned before makes me think that we should be cautious of assessing some things "subjectively" and based on a few peoples "feelings". In other words we should always be cautious when dealing with anecdotal information.

To back up make case, here's two anecdotes

My friend have been monofinning for a few years. However his alltime personal record in DYN is stil done with a pair of fairly small snorkling-style bifins (allthough he's close to that). He is well experienced and quite a national competitor. There are many things that can be said about that. One of them is, that what "feels" more power-ful might also steel more O2... So efficiency is difficult to "feel".

Another story fresh from today: I cut my tiny flip-flop bifins because I'd like to use them as a training fin making them just barely able to make propulsion. However I found out today that it made almost no difference on my diving (short dives) but it "felt" different.

So that is one story when it feels more efficient - but isn't (for that type of diving for that person).
And one where it feels less efficient - but isn't (for that type of diving for that person).

 

[cdavis]

-" The things about foil not being able to handle strong kicks are partly right."

Sounds and looks right in theory, but doesn't seem to work out that way, at least for Dolfin immediate acceleration. I found that the first kick acceleration (legs bent a lot) was much much better than stiff bifins. It definitely doesn't stall. I haven't compared with a traditional mono, so can't comment. Ron called it the "pounce". That is a good description, and a very useful trait. Once getting some speed, bad technique can result in over kicking my Dolfin, which hurts power transfer and, I guess, acceleration after the first kick, so this is a more complicated subject than it looks. Immediate acceleration and maneuverability are the two areas of comparison that I am particularly interested in.

 

[Apneaddict]

Re: stability, no matter which fin I've ever used... If I start to wander or glide off of centre... Fighting it or "making" it get back to straight isn't anywhere NEAR as effective as "going limp" / relaxing and it always corrects itself very quickly.

Just my own observations and technique tip.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[baiyoke]

-" The things about foil not being able to handle strong kicks are partly right."

Sounds and looks right in theory, but doesn't seem to work out that way, at least for Dolfin immediate acceleration. I found that the first kick acceleration (legs bent a lot) was much much better than stiff bifins. It definitely doesn't stall. I haven't compared with a traditional mono, so can't comment. Ron called it the "pounce". That is a good description, and a very useful trait. Once getting some speed, bad technique can result in over kicking my Dolfin, which hurts power transfer and, I guess, acceleration after the first kick, so this is a more complicated subject than it looks. Immediate acceleration and maneuverability are the two areas of comparison that I am particularly interested in.

Hmm.. Intersting. Yes that first kick - if the knees are bend and the foil starts at a very different angle - looks like a very complicated equation to figure out... In that light, and like Finsailor is calling for, some user experiences are perhaps more usefull than I first expected... Otherwise we might end up with too complex a discussion/guessing about hydrodynamic properties

 

[finSailor]

.. and like Finsailor is calling for, some user experiences are perhaps more usefull than I first expected... Otherwise we might end up with too complex a discussion/guessing about hydrodynamic properties

My point exactly why I started the thread - user experiences will give us more information than theoretical approach. I have faith in people - human mind is a great tool to analyse myriad of signals and complex combinations. First-hand comparison is absolutely best , but since it is so rare, I hope that as many people as possible share their experiences.

I knew my initial post do not cover all relevant angles nor use cases, but decided to threw it in anyway. You should not try to find a definitive thorough analysis from one post, but combining opinions from all posts you can get your eyes on to.

Looking forward to read from any other comparison, so please keep posting!

By the way, my 'tester' still feels that traditional monofin with right stiffness is still the best 'all-around fin', as an overall ranking.

 

[Philip Fennell]

If I start to wander or glide off of centre... Fighting it or "making" it get back to straight isn't anywhere NEAR as effective as "going limp" / relaxing and it always corrects itself very quickly.

I agree with @REVAN, from my recent experience with my technique, if I get off-axis with my Pilot2 then letting it glide-out is the best and most economical way.

 

[HydroApprentice]

Hydroapprentice the lower drag can make it more sensitive an able to move like that I think. Was it without a neckweight (wasn't it you who didn't have a neckweight), because added front-weight could help a lot there.

Spot on, weighing was an issue. I guess the weight on my belt was a bit unbalanced, which kind of turned me a bit to the side. Also, I didn't have a neck weight... I should really try to get my hands on some lead shot, and get this done and over with!

 

[cdavis]

You will find the Dol-fin works a heck of a lot better with a neck weight. Horizontal, you can get away without one. Vertical, a neck weight is critical.

On getting off straight: stop kicking and glide works perfectly with the Dol-fin when you are horizontal, but not vertical. If you don't have a neck weight and otherwise don't have your weighting right, gliding vertically when you get off straight doesn't work, it just gets worse as the fin wants to fall faster than the rest of you.

 

[Chipswim]

I find myself sadly unprepared to contribute much here¡ I only own one of the choices to be compared ~~~~~and where I swim everything over 12 feet deep is beautiful blue..... concrete...¡

So far.... I think we've established that a very small number of finners have managed to swim both fins.... Let alone own them both. We have the precious experience of only one swimmer that we've heard of second hand in Finland! A rare person indeed!

Based on interest expressed here ~~~~~~~!?!?

It seems that group may be poised to grow?

Is there anyone else?