Matrix Fins Review

rogers on the dad...pm me your number.

I AM A NATURAL DISASTER!!!!! Dont forget about the family mauled by the bear last week...that was about 5 miles from my house in TN...on the trails I ride as a matter of fact. FEMA is considering paying for me to move abroad

Icarus Pacific: Are the Bat 30 stiffer then Matrix 2 ?

BTW I am really enjoying this thread since I am planning to replace my gara 2000, I think they are too stiff for me.

The number on those fins are they equivalent from brand to brand like a bat 30 would similar to a matrix 3 ?

Nice to see a few of you guys like to ride mountain bikes. There are a lot of parallel arguments that can be made comparing spearfishing equipment and bikes which I could summarize relative to this discussion. BTW Jon and Mike, I remember the first time I saw a Kestrel carbon fiber mountain bike 89-90’, ahead of its time! Sadly, I knew a lot of these early ones were prone to failures out on the trail! The cost of innovation I suppose, carbon fiber mountain bikes are everywhere today.

Moutain bikes like freediving fins come in different categories, your cross country racers, your all mountain and trail bikes, and your big hit bikes. I ride a cross country bike since I used to race cross country and it’s a big advantage to me carrying 5lbs less up and down huffing and puffing through the country side. All mountain and trail bikes are for guys that are typically riding in more gnarly conditions, hoping off rocks and jumps where 5-6” of suspension travel is required. And as you know big hit bikes and downhill bikes are just as the name implies.

Problems sometimes rise when you get a 200lb+ rider on a lightweight cross country bike who likes to hit jumps and hop boulders or launch 8’ aerials off cliffs. The bikes sometimes break and I hear about horrible exchanges between the manufacturer and an irate customer whose bike wasn’t supposed to break. The fault is not of the manufacturer but the customer for not using the bike for its intended purpose. A cross country bike isn’t designed with its 4” of travel to clear 5’ spaces between your tire and the ground or ride down Mammoth Mountain to get you to the bottom in one piece. Because the manufacturer can’t be assured that the dealer who sold the bike explained this to the customer before hand nor can they certify the customer was conscious of the issue when he bought it so they try to reach an understanding and take care of the problem amicable giving the customer the benefit of the doubt most of the time.

Freediving fins are much the same. So are high performance cars come to think of it, they’re fast but not reliable when it comes to carpooling kids and pets and groceries around. A minivan is better intended to that pursuit. You can’t really have both as much as the best companies in the industry try to bridge these gaps. A month ago I was in Italy having a conversation with Marco Bonfanti of C4. C4 is a high end carbon fiber road bike manufacturer, and his bikes are as highly regarded as his fins. Holding his new Mustang fin and playing with it as he spoke, he told me how it reminded him of how from time to time someone will take one of his carbon road bikes (the frames weigh 2-4lbs) and do the test whereby they’re standing up and flex the bike sideways by pushing their foot against the pedal in an effort to get the bike to arch sideways. Some of you bikers may know what I’m talking about. This is the most ridiculous test a person can do to a bicycle. A bike is not subjected to this sort of non natural motion and not only is it risky and could crack a very light carbon frame but it’s literally pointless since the bike never works naturally this way with a rider pedaling it.
chapt. 2 to be cont.

Several times in my work, as rep of both C4 and Omer fins that combined have more than 30 years of experience manufacturing freediving fins, I have seen a broken blade come back. With thousands of blades in our market over the years it’s bound to happen. A customary quick call to the customer and over the years I have been told such stories as, the diver was Scuba diving with doubles wearing Carbon fiber fins and doing forward lunge entries off the dive ladder of the boat, to divers spearfishing in 30ft of water with Bat 40’s or C4 40’s (comparable to using your fin blades as snowshoes walking across rocks) consequently breaking them, walking down the sandy and rocky beach backward with the fins on their feet before getting in the water, pushing off rocks with glass and carbon fins to leverage a grouper out of a hole, and I could mention many more.

These are cases where clearly the product was not at fault and was used incorrectly. It’s usually the exception and not the rule. In some cases it could be a batch of fins suffered structural integrity problems (the drilling vs punching the holes though for the screws I mentioned in an earlier post may have gone unnoticed by technicians and weakened the blade) even with a great track record no company is ever without the occasional production problem. It is even possible that occasionally a rubber foot-pocket could tear by pulling it too hard or from having received a strong fingernail incision, after all its rubber not titanium. Omer Millenium footpockets are 6mm thick in the lip of the pocket and 4mm in the thinnest rubber section around the heel. By contrast Esclapez, just for the sake of naming one, is less than 5mm at the lip and 3mm in the lower neck of the pocket. In any event the purpose of a product’s warranty is to address issues that stem from a manufacturer’s defect and I feel we offer a gracious warranty of 2-3 years.

However, many of us are a rougher on our equipment than we like to admit, myself included. Spearfisherman are more so than any other type of diver in particular. When push comes to shove with a fish underwater we’re reluctant to be as graceful and smooth in our movements as our objective is to get the fish and put it in the boat asap. If the fins or our equipment get beat up in the process we’ll deal with that issue later. The fish is the priority many times at the cost of the equipment. Since I can relate to these divers being one myself, and know that they enjoy high performance equipment and sometimes even put it to the test more so than it’s intended limitations of wear and tear, I am typically the one who has to make the case to my boss that this diver is worth giving the benefit of the doubt too and offer a free replacement (only if they landed the fish of course).

In a perfect world on the other hand, let’s suppose you are a retired and practiced “already been there done that” diver by the name of Joe Diver whereby on a gorgeous flat clam sea off Dana Point on a monday morning, you salute your lovely wife of 50 years Nancy and head off to Catalina island. You dive down 20-30ft wait around for a yellowtail or white sea bass to come by and if you don’t see one you calmly and collectively make for the surface, going through the motions several more times enjoying the wild spectacle the kelp "ambiance" provides after which if luck or no luck you drive your boat home taking in the scenery and the fresh salty air, and go back to the forums to recount an adventurous day out on the high seas. In this instance it is unlikely any equipment will be susceptible to failure. This is not what any would call pushing the limits and that’s probably a good thing. In this case you’re unlikely to ever suffer any problems with any of your gear, in fact you may never even suffer a hole in your dive sock. You probably won’t get the best and biggest fish either but if you’re happy with that, the more the merrier speaking from a Mfg’s standpoint.

In a nutshell divers must be realistic in assessing their abilities and their diving goal when purchasing a pair of freediving fins. If you buy polymer/plastic/polypropylene entry level fin blades such as our Milleniums its not so crucial as the mechanical limitations of the fin are much less defined and plastic is really good for wear and tear in general, especially for beginners and a first set of long fins where you are not likely to truly appreciate the subtle differences in performance of glass fins or carbon fiber anyway. These are therefore ideal to hone your style of diving in and fine tune them and figure out your preferences before you make a more substantial investment.

I use Bat 25’s for all my inshore diving. I’ve used this fin for over 2 years now and find it very agile and rugged for scraping against rocks and barnacle and they take a good beating. I’m looking forward also to using the Ice fins for this general purpose this year since the stiffness is very similar to the Bat 25’s. Prior to the 25’s I used to wear my C4 30’s in the shallows and beat them up quite a bit and after 2 years one cracked. I now only use the C4’s for my deeper diving in open water over shipwrecks and I haven’t had any problems although many I know use them for everything without any problems. Since C4 softened the stiffness of the production blades a bit a little less than a year ago I use the 40’s for deeper open water diving and now I’m looking forward to using the Rekord 3’s and the Mustangs as well. Several very strong divers such as Cameron Kirconnel (Blue H20 boy) and Brandon Wahler’s tell me great things about the Rekord 3’s already. I will gladly post my impressions after the fins get some painstaking use and I feel I’ve gotten enough use out of them to point out their qualities. Owing to the fact these companies have both done their prior tests and development I’m sure these impressions will be superficial in that I’m fairly sure these two companies would put out a high end product out without being sure that their customers will vouch for their effectiveness.

I hope I’ve helped you get to the 5pm end of the workday a little sooner now and helped kill some boring time at the office (it has for me). Sorry but it doesn’t come in hard cover

Regards,

Mark Laboccetta

Why did I know this was coming??

Yeah, OK Bill. :hmm

My editing posts, yours, Mark's and others is done for primarily one reason- to keep the harping down to a minimum. One one or both sides start to get a hard-on and I can see it coming to no good end, I'll delete the name calling or that person's name in the other party's post. DB has a zero policy on personal attacks and before you get your beavertail too wedged, I deleted a few lines of Mark's post that directly went at you. No charge. And yeah, I know you're old enough to defend yourself, but you (and Mark) are also old enough to be able to hear (read) eachother out and not get all tweaked when that person's opinion is called. Yeah, you know a guy whose fin broke and Mark fixed it. End of story. But noooo....

Both of you members are respected here and in the other boards as well, but you both also have a tendency to "bait" and to recoil and insinuate when your opinions are questioned. You especially Bill ought to recognize this from your history on Spearboard, as should Mark from my having deleted several of his posts because he "knee-jerked" .

You don't have to like the fact that I have deleted a couple of your sentences, but you do have to go by a set of standards that DB has that are remakably similar to those that work out in the real world- that being respect what the other has to say, don't go into a subtle exercise in name calling and don't act surprised and feign hurt when a Mentor or Team Leader steps in and calls for a time-out. If that's hard enough as you say, on the Internet, well, hey... make it easier on yourself. :head

OK guys; can we talk fins again, I find the information posted by Bill very helpful, we all know that long blade fins can crack and they will crack, I had plenty of fins crack with me and friends I could add that talking to Hanapaa they have both Matrix and Omer fins split. I've also did not see any brand be talked down here, omer is one of the best brands in the spearfishing but it also has something that is even better then the brand, Marks and his passion and service oriented actions, in my opinion that is above and beyond what any brand can possible offer.
Now what would be helpful at this point, would a cross chart of brands and relative stiffness does any know it something like that exists.

I agree. If you want to put up your fins and the stiffness, we could use it on a chart/graph. I can see the howls from the statistics-types about the unscientific nature of the application, but hey, we've seen here that you can't make everyone happy...

Hawaiian Skin Diver magazine also did a write up fins that included aMatrix fins. Check it out. Good friend Terry Lentz went right out and bought a pair.

fuzz said:

Following up to THIS THREAD which got off tangent a bit, the following is my personal take on the Matrix fins.

The fins I own and can compare them to are - OMER Millenium Competition, Picasso Black Team, & a pair of Blue Esclapez.

Power
Following the advice on the 20 Fathoms Website, I requested a #2 stiffness pair. At that rating, I wasn't expecting a lot of power, but I was honestly disappointed the first time I used them. As I familiarized myself with the Matrixes, I realized that I needed to adjust my kicking from my normal short strokes to longer strokes. With slow smooth kicks, I can now propel myself with great ease through the water. I didn't get raw power from stiffness, but instead I got a fin that is incredibly efficient. After my fast learning curve, I could time the strokes so that the built-up flex of one stroke would rebound and aid in the start of the next... tre' smooth indeed :hmm

Surface Swimming
Surface swimming is a little more difficult with these fins due to the lack of angle; however, with minor adjustments I could hardly tell the difference. This is the one area that I can see where the softer blades help. Stiffer blades are great for deep dives, but are slightly more difficult to surface swim with... it's a trade-off with any type of fins.

Diving
Diving is awesome with these fins. After getting used to them, I could drop very smoothly with minimal effort(attributed to the efficiency of the fins). I could do deeper dives and not worry about the return to the surface - just slow, smooth strokes. On the few times that I pushed it longer than I should have, the fins worked great for dolphin kicking back to the surface. While this blade is not designed for power, it has enough backbone to boost you if needed. I got to try the #4 stiffness blades & you can really fly with them! Unfortunately I was so intrigued with how fast I could move, I soon tired myself out
Conclusions
I love these fins. :inlove I've tried 2 types of carbon fins(Sporasub & Picasso) & honestly really wasn't very impressed by either. For the money, they just aren't worth it. I believe the Matrix fins have an excellent value & possess superior durability to ANY carbon fin. The performance is on par with carbon and in my personal opinion, better. I am genuinely impressed.

I uploaded a set of pictures of my personal pair of Matrix fins from different angles.
Click here to view pictures

If you have any questions or if I left anything out, please respond.


***Note: I have no affiliation with 20fathoms***

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So, do you recommend as well the stiffness number 4? Do you think is a good compromise to dive with or i will be tired out soon??

Bill McIntyre said:

Fuzz- its almost as if you were writing that review for me, because my experience and opinions are much the same. I'll elaborate a bit on how I reached the same conclusions.

Before I bought my Matrix #2, I had an opportunity to borrow the #4 blades in Sporasub pockets. I had been using Black Esclapez and felt like they couldn't get me off the bottom at 50 feet, and these #4 blades brought me up like a rocket. However, on the surface I felt like I was slapping the water with pieces of plywood. Also, the foot pockets were killing the tops of my feet and there is no way I could wear them for even an hour.The same guy who loaned me the Matrix also loaned me Picasso Carboprenes. They felt great, but no fin feels great enough for me to spend $600 on it. The foot pockets felt wonderful.

I contacted Dennis Hausler at 20 Fathoms and described my diving habits, and he recommended #2. I was skeptical and told him that I did want to be able to get off the bottom, but he assured me that he had worn #2 with a thick wet suit at the Nationals in Rhode Island, and had no problem coming up from 70 feet repeatedly.

So now I had chosen the #2 blades, but what about the foot pockets? I called Roger Yazbeck at Picasso and asked him what foot pockets were used in the Carboprenes, and he said it was the Black Team pockets.

So I ordered Black Team pockets from Roger, #2 Matrix blades from Dennis, put them together, and lived happily ever after. I can swim all day on the surface with them, but they still get me up from 50 or 60 feet with a thick wet suit quite nicely.

I cruise quite a bit on the surface. If your diving is more up and down with little surface swimming and you have strong legs, then you might prefer #3 blades. I can't imagine using #4 unless all I did was go straight up and down, and then for not too long a time.

I hope this helped.

Click to expand...

I made a trade with Andrea Tomba for a couple of black swimworld fins, stiffness number 4. (that are in fact the same as the matrix) and the foot pockets are really killing me, (Nemo footpockets) Do you recommend the team pockets for that stiffness as well or do i have to grow a man and stick to the standard pockets??

Seaman

If you are still shopping for a pair of fins also check this thread.

[ame="http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=66457"]Best fins for spearfishing?[/ame]

fuzz said:

Where is it hurting? I believe the Nemos are pretty similar to sporasubs which hurt my feet pretty bad too, ESPECIALLY in warm weather where the booties are thinner. Up here, it's not bad with 5mm booties. How does the boot fit on your foot? Too tight?

Another factor may be the blades are too stiff for you. This makes the force on your footpocket more & the extra pressure amplifies discomfort on rub points. 4's are good for up & down swimming, but for surface swimming & against current, the 2's/3's would make life a lot easier.

How many times have you had them out?

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Thanks Harold, I think this is the issue, cause i feel the pockets ok, but after a while the instep beggins to feel dull and then the dullnes had become a pain in the area that translates ina real pain in the @$$!! I had try them in la reina were we used to dive down the C. Island and another time at the Fa ming Wreck, with the same results ..Do you think i can get used to that stiffness or should i get rid of them and trade them for a softer blade?? I got them in the first place cause you were (*you and Nate) sporting them and i was in awe, cause we dealt with a strong current. Seems that i got the wrong stiffness though. I wish i would had read your review before ...

Thank you man, appreciate it ... i will try to get used to it, same thing with the Magnum hybrid, that was a real brute to load without the resting tab, i got from you the tip of stomach loading, and right now i load it in no time, double thank you

seaman said:

Thanks Harold, I think this is the issue, cause i feel the pockets ok, but after a while the instep beggins to feel dull and then the dullnes had become a pain in the area that translates ina real pain in the @$$!! I had try them in la reina were we used to dive down the C. Island and another time at the Fa ming Wreck, with the same results ..Do you think i can get used to that stiffness or should i get rid of them and trade them for a softer blade?? I got them in the first place cause you were (*you and Nate) sporting them and i was in awe, cause we dealt with a strong current. Seems that i got the wrong stiffness though. I wish i would had read your review before ...

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Compa

too bad I did not read this before. well I had hard time adapting myself to the #3 matrixs. Now I use those, but It's hard when the current start.

Now I have a pair of MTechnics and my dive is real good since then.

I still using the #3 when diving in the rocks.

Saludos

Carlos

Carlos,

Which M-technics do you have????




Jon

Pocoshower said:

Compa

too bad I did not read this before. well I had hard time adapting myself to the #3 matrixs. Now I use those, but It's hard when the current start.

Now I have a pair of MTechnics and my dive is real good since then.

I still using the #3 when diving in the rocks.

Saludos

Carlos

Click to expand...

Hey hermano. Likewise, i love to read forums to get the technic advice from the pros, but sometimes i get it afterwards. Next time i will search the forums before any "gear getting attempt"

Jon said:

Carlos,

Which M-technics do you have????




Jon

Click to expand...

Good question Jon.

I really don't know rofl

They were made last winter, by Jan 2006

I realy love this fins. My style improved a lot when diving CW in the line. I can realy feel the diference.

Carlos