midhandle question

[spaghetti]

How long does a midhandle speargun have to be for being equal in band stretch/shaft length/shooting range to a 90cm euro rear handle?
More simply put: what's the midhandle equivalent for a 90 euro?
Is it 42' inches, 45' or what else? I can't make up my mind with those anglo sizes...

...I can hear mr. Daryl, mr. Jay and Mr. Tommy calling my name...

 

[Marwan]

spago, closest to a 90 euro would be a 45 inch...in my opinion...hmmm looks like pastor and miles got to you at last...

 

[spaghetti]

spago, closest to a 90 euro would be a 45 inch...in my opinion...hmmm looks like pastor and miles got to you at last...

thanks for response. 45 it will be.
Well I'm still a bit skeptical about mid handle but I'm too curious, too tired of the same old euros I've been using for 20 years, I want to try something different. I'm using a polespear too these days! (it's JimDoe's polespear: with my typically italian creativity and fancy I named it "Jim" :king).
And after all, with the super Euro currency it's about time for buying american stuff, and Botha's guns look like a good deal too.

 

[alexrom1207]

Please Spagetti BUY OUR STUFF....our dollar needs your support :thankyou

 

[Pastor]

The Wong northeaster at 42" is identical to an Omer excalibur 90 or so I'm told, certainly my 50" measures up as a 110.

I'm not trying to say that mid handles are better in any circumstances, I'm just trying to say that they could be an alternative for some people in the sort of conditions that we have here up in North Wales. My argument was based on that UK spearos had to buy their kit from the Mediterranean makers who stopped making mid handled guns and progressed with rear handled guns because they were much better suited to the Mediterranean style of hunting. They are not perfect but neither is anything we use but then what I've read of Mr Spaghetti's lake conditions they might be useful but that will only ever be a personal decision.

 

[Bill]

Spaghetti
I have some numbers and I can't remember where they came from.
75cm gun 115cm shaft 45"
82cm 115cm 45"
90cm 130cm 51"
100cm 140cm 55"
110cm 150cm 59"
120cm 160cm 63"
130cm 170cm 67"

but it isn't quite that simple. If you use these equivalents you will lose up to 30 cm in reach with the mid handle (same shaft, same rubber). In competition, the only times I used the 45" gun was shooting in caves and viz less than 3 meters. The longer guns cost more but Uncle Sam needs the money. lol

 

[Pastor]

but it isn't quite that simple. If you use these equivalents you will lose up to 30 cm in reach with the mid handle

I like to see that as gaining the extra power and accuracy of a 30cm longer gun

 

[Marwan]

if you look on the midhandles on the riffe website, a 44" gives a band stretch of 86cm, similar to a 90 speargun, so it would seem more appropriate to be in the 44-45 range, my wong 55 is the equivalent of something between 115 and 120..all these measuring systrems..americans use stock length (i.e the lenth of the wood), Euros use barrel elngth, some eures use band stretch from muzzle to second notch...as dave pointed to me recently for the seatec

 

[Bill]

I like the way a mid handle handles, even with a 10" longer barrel. Best of both worlds.

 

[foxfish]

That does sound a more appropriate comparison - matching band length rather than gun length. That way way you will get more idea about the guns range.

 

[metelin]

european or more appropriately rear handle euro style guns no matter where they are made are measured in band stretch meaning that a 100cm gun is not the total length of the gun but the amount the bands stretch from the muzzle to the last loading tab or notch on the shaft and usually they are 20-30cm's longer from muzzle to butt.

american guns, mid handle or rear, are measured in overall length meaning from muzzle to the butt and the band stretch depends on who made the gun. for example i put the trigger mech on my guns 1'' or 25mm from the butt, as a result the band stretch is about 6'' or 15cm less than the overall length, so a 50'' or 127cm gun will have a band stretch of 44'' or 111cm. this is only possible to do on mid handle guns because the trigger mech is behind the handle and could be place all the way to the rear of the gun.

a 90cm euro is 35'' measured in band stretch plus about 6'' or 15cm would make the overall length of the gun about 41'' or 105cm. the other thing to consider is the placement of the handle, for example on a gun of that size i would put the handle about 8-10 or 20-25cm for the butt meaning the gun will fell like a 60cm euro. also, american wood or half wood and half pipe (hybrids) guns are generally heavier than euros so they could shoot a thicker shaft with multiple bands, on a gun of this size i would shoot a 7mm shafts with 2 16mm bands.

i think mid handle american style guns make most sense in either short versions where they could be used in low viz to shoot fish like big bass or long versions (over 120cm) to shoot big fish in clear water because they are easier to maneuver than rear handle guns although they are not as easy to aim as a euro.

steve

 

[foxfish]

Air guns are also measured by total length.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I'm a big fan of mid-handle guns, but my shortest one measures 55". I don't see much sense in replacing a 90 cm Euro with a mid-handle. Isn't it at those small sizes where a Euro excels? I would think that its when they get longer and harder to swing that mid-handles make more sense.

BTW, it may be nit-picking, but you can't really make a hard and fast comparison of equivalent Euro and mid-handle lengths because some mid-handles have the trigger mechanism closer to the rear end than others. Riffes, for instance, have quite a lot of wood aft of the mechanism.

But even sticking to the Wong brand, there can be a difference of a couple of inches in band stretch between two guns of the same length. The open track hybrids have a round butt extension with a rubber cap, much like the Riffes, while the semi-enclosed track models don't have that. In this photo, notice that the mechanism is closer to the rear end on the upper gun.

As previously stated, the distance from the band holes to the shaft fins or slots is what counts.

 

[Bill]

Thanks for jumping in Steve and Bill.

Two more comments about size if you're building. On 150 cm or better guns, the minimum distance from the butt to the short notch is about 23 cm for loading reasons and the distance from butt to handle is about 30 cm for manoeuvering.

On my new gun I'm procrastinating over shafts. Instead of 65" (165 cm) of 5/16 (8 mm) how much difference would it be if I moved the mechanism forward 30 cm, used a 9 mm shaft 135 cm long (same weight) and add a band to get the same muzzle velocity with a shorter stretch.

 

[metelin]

I'm a big fan of mid-handle guns, but my shortest one measures 55". I don't see much sense in replacing a 90 cm Euro with a mid-handle. Isn't it at those small sizes where a Euro excels? I would think that its when they get longer and harder to swing that mid-handles make more sense.

BTW, it may be nit-picking, but you can't really make a hard and fast comparison of equivalent Euro and mid-handle lengths because some mid-handles have the trigger mechanism closer to the rear end than others. Riffes, for instance, have quite a lot of wood aft of the mechanism.

But even sticking to the Wong brand, there can be a difference of a couple of inches in band stretch between two guns of the same length. The open track hybrids have a round butt extension with a rubber cap, much like the Riffes, while the semi-enclosed track models don't have that. In this photo, notice that the mechanism is closer to the rear end on the upper gun.

As previously stated, the distance from the band holes to the shaft fins or slots is what counts.

i was thinking more in terms of hunting in the med in the winter time when the viz could be limited but the big bass show up. similar to strippers in the american north east but smaller and similar but maybe not as bad viz wise. a short mid handle would do very well because it offers much more power than a short euro and better maneuverability.

the other thing that needs to be said regarding trigger mech placement is that, the closer the mech is to the rear of the gun the more power you get but also the gun is harder to load and in most cases it needs to be chest loaded.

steve

 

[Bill McIntyre]

the other thing that needs to be said regarding trigger mech placement is that, the closer the mech is to the rear of the gun the more power you get but also the gun is harder to load and in most cases it needs to be chest loaded.

steve

That's for sure. I chest load all of my guns.

 

[metelin]

Thanks for jumping in Steve and Bill.

Two more comments about size if you're building. On 150 cm or better guns, the minimum distance from the butt to the short notch is about 23 cm for loading reasons and the distance from butt to handle is about 30 cm for manoeuvering.

On my new gun I'm procrastinating over shafts. Instead of 65" (165 cm) of 5/16 (8 mm) how much difference would it be if I moved the mechanism forward 30 cm, used a 9 mm shaft 135 cm long (same weight) and add a band to get the same muzzle velocity with a shorter stretch.

i like short shafts, on all of my guns have about 8'' of overhang but i'm not sure why you would want to change shaft thickness. if you're shooting big fish you would want to go for the thicker shaft in which case you would build the gun thicker and add enough ballast to offset the recoil so you can get the full benefit of the extra penetration you get from that shaft.

bottom line is, what are you going to shoot? big fish (over 100#) = big shaft, medium fish (around 50#) = medium shaft.

steve

ps my buddy and i were in kona three weeks ago, we hunted between the place of refuge and the kohana coast but never made it down to south point (wife, kids, ect.... you know) hopefully next year, the big island is imo the best but i've only been to maui and oahu.