Modified Pathos 120 light blue water / reefgun

Kodama · May 3, 2019

A friend of mine wanted a versatile gun, one he could use in Cape Verde for some light blue water hunting but also to patrol the reef in search for some decent sized fish.

I found my inspiration after following some of the tests of Madjd aka spearq8 a well known contributor.

The basic idea was to slightly overpower the gun for BW hunting and using pretty much a standard setup for reef hunting.

After looking at this clip we decided that we would just copy the setup we knew would work. Shooting straight and having ample power at 6 meters to penetrate big fish seemed good enough.

Sourcing 14.5 small id bands is not that easy in Europe so we settled for the Sigalsub Extreme which were readily available.

To manage the recoil of the BW setup a proper handle modification was necessary.
The first attempt with polymorph resulted in what you could call ‘a blob that feels good’.
The second time the result was slightly better but still too much blob-like.
After some initial grinding and sanding things started to look better.

I was looking for functionality but the result needs to look good as well and not like some cobbled together piece of Frankengun.

After the shaping and cutting away 1/4 of excess plastic I applied two layers of carbon fiber with some sanding in between.

After curing a friction layer with some locally sourced fine white sand.

And a final layer to smooth things out.

Nicholas1986 · May 3, 2019

Neat work! Are you using a carbon barrel as in vid? I am wondering if an aluminum barrel would help with some of the ‘recoil’?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kodama · May 3, 2019

We are using a carbon barrel. I don’t think a aluminum barrel would help anything with recoil, on the contrary. A cf barrel is very stiff and it can better transfer the force in a straight line towards your hand.
If your grip and technique is good you can mitigate most of the recoil and make sure as much power as possible is used to propel the shaft.

But then again maybe there is no noticeable difference at all.

Bill McIntyre · May 3, 2019

I admire your ingenuity and effort. I'm afraid I just have to take what is offered by manufacturers.

I do have one comment on that sand in the handle. I recently purchased a Ulusub 155 and it came with a handle with an aggressive sand finish. When I was trying it out in a pool the butt slipped while loading on my hip and that handle tore a big hole in my wet suit. The guy who was letting me use his pool had a similar story. Last summer he was jumping in on offshore floating kelp paddies wearing just trunks since the water was unusually warm and we aren't in the water very long when we do that. The butt of his Ulusub slipped and he tore a very large strip of fat out of this abdomen. He showed me the scar and it was impressive. So both of us have used sandpaper to sand off the sand on our handles. They are still plenty rough, but not so dangerous.

I'm afraid I can't find any photos of the handle before sanding, but here are photos of the hole in my wetsuit from the inside and the handle after sanding. In the one showing the handle on the gun, the gun to the left is an Abellan.

Kodama · May 3, 2019

That Ulusub handle looks really nice as well!
I am sorry that has happened to you. Luckily I never had such a bad luck. When loading my Pathos or some of my other guns I first hip load to the first tab and then chest load to the last tab. When chest loading I rest both the back of the handle and the loading path against my chest and abdomen just below the plexus. It makes slipping very difficult and gives me some extra bearing surface for comfort. The area of the Pathos loading pads is pretty small.
That in combination with reinforced loading path on my wetsuit has been enough to avoid problems as yours. We will see how it goes. I will warn my friend for the potential hazards.

Another friend of mine had something similar happen to him but that only had to do with the fragile neoprene used for his wetsuit which was unsuitable for spearfishing.

Kodama · May 3, 2019

Back to the build now.

Besides the handle there was also the need to be able to remove the reel quickly when switching between reef and BW.

This is the quick release mounted on a stainless steel plate that requires shaping.

We will install an Ermes Sub Falcon 57 reel.

Bill McIntyre · May 3, 2019

I load my guns exactly the same way- I hip load to a rest tab and then chest load to the loading tabs. I've never had a slip from the loading pad on my chest, but it was a slip from my hip that got my wet suit. And it was the same for my friend.

For over 20 years until last year I used mid handled guns and it seem like I must have had a butt slip during all that time. But with a mid handled gun the handle is far enough forward so that it not going to do you any damage. With a rear handle, if the gun rotates as it slips then the handle is right there against you while the bands are still pulling hard. But maybe your sand isn't as aggressive as the sand on the Ulusubs, or maybe your friends isn't as much of a klutz as me and my friend. I just thought I'd mention it.

I asked Jon Uberman, the guy who makes Ulusub guns, why he used that aggressive finish. It turns out that he lives on the Kona Coast of the Big Island and swims out from shore to hunt wahoo and even tuna. Can you imagine shore diving like that? But anyway, he takes a pole spear hanging from his float and shoots a lot of oily bait fish to use for chum. Handling the chum makes his gloves very slippery. I just don't have a situation like that. In fact I carry my guns with the handle back next to my thigh with the gun on its back, and and I found that the non-slip finish actually made it hard for me to rotate the handle to bring the gun up to a shooting position in front of me.

Bill McIntyre · May 3, 2019

Your modification for removing the reel is ingenious and far beyond my capability.

For years when I switched between reel and breakaway float line, I had to have two different shafts with different length shooting lines. Then someone showed me a simple way to use the same float line and shaft. Just use the shaft with shooting line appropriate for breakaway all the time. If you want to use a reel, just bring the clip from the reel line back to the same loop where the breakaway would attach. If you're using breakaway, just reel the clip on the reel line up tight to the reel and tuck it under some how.

I alway use float line now, so my first impulse was to remove the reel that came with the Ulusub. But Jon convinced me that I should just leave it on the gun for ballast and recoil reduction, so I did. But the photos show how it would look if I were using the reel.

Notice that the handle in the photos is not the one that I showed previously, shaped for a right hand. He also included an "ambidextrous" handle, also with heavy grit which I sanded off. One nice feature of the Ulusub guns is that he uses an AR-15 frame, which lets you use a multitude of handle choices.

Kodama · May 4, 2019

Thanks Bill that is an interesting approach leaving the reel on.

In our case we decided to use two different shafts. One for each setup and also use a separate band setup, thickness and stretch factor, depending on which spear we are shooting.

We are trying to come as close as possible to an ideal setup although a versatile speargun will always remain a compromise somehow.

Kodama · May 4, 2019

Here are some pictures that compare the standard Pathos setup to ours.

Note the decreased trigger to palm/handle distance. The original has a length of more than 70something mm which makes it unnecessarily difficult to shoot accurately. We decreased it to 63mm.

I also added a proper line guide able to hold more then two strands of mono.

A comparison between the original trigger with pin release and the Ermes Sub double roller trigger with side line release. No matter how powerful the setup, smooth release guaranteed.

Bill McIntyre · May 4, 2019

Very nice. I have a friend who has a Pathos 125 (I think) and I always wondered about that pin line release. That trigger with side line release looks like a great upgrade.

Kodama · May 4, 2019

I used the standard trigger with the pin line release for a couple of years. It is okay when you are used to it. A double wrap is hard and once so often the mono slips of and it’s a PIA when that happens during your hunt.

The Ermes triggers are just so much better.

Last year I saw some Pathos prototype guns and they too had triggers with side line release. They might put them on the market.

However the main difference with these triggers is not the line release but the two rollers that make the action so smooth and predictable even under very high loads.

Bill McIntyre · May 4, 2019

Yes, I've been following spearq8's thread on Spearboard. I think the main reason I go there and scroll past all the politics and religion crap is you guys discussing equipment.

Kodama · May 4, 2019

You got to be able to navigate the sewer over there. Very unfortunate..

Broseidon · May 4, 2019

I’ve only read the first post of this thread but I’m really confused.

You want a powerful gun and your chosen course of action is to take one of the lightest guns on the market, drastically overpower it, then change the handle to deal with the power..? I must be missing something.

I have lot of experience with Pathos guns, I’ve used them exclusively for a number of years; they are brilliant in their simplicity but they are extremely light and don’t handle recoil well.

Instead of messing around with the handle, if you want a lot of power why don’t you just convert the gun to an invert roller with an MVD kit? Big increase in power, minimal recoil.

Kodama · May 5, 2019

Broseidon said:
I’ve only read the first post of this thread but I’m really confused.

You want a powerful gun and your chosen course of action is to take one of the lightest guns on the market, drastically overpower it, then change the handle to deal with the power..? I must be missing something.

I have lot of experience with Pathos guns, I’ve used them exclusively for a number of years; they are brilliant in their simplicity but they are extremely light and don’t handle recoil well.

Instead of messing around with the handle, if you want a lot of power why don’t you just convert the gun to an invert roller with an MVD kit? Big increase in power, minimal recoil.

I suppose you are not familiar with the tests madjd / Spearq8 has done with this gun?

First of all I have extensive experience with roller guns and the like and although some of them have clearly certain benefits I believe the classic band setup is hard to beat in simplicity and efficiency.
A classic band gun is much easier regarding maintenance compared to any roller. An important factor when traveling.

I also suggest you read the whole tread and more importantly the work previously done by Spearq8 to understand what we are trying to do here.

The idea is that recoil is not a problem at all with a proper shaped handle and shooting technique.
See the video below.

There are two more videos in the series worth looking at.
I hope the above illustrates the line of thought we are following.

I am not familiar with the mvd roller kits but if the quality is anything similar to the knife I bought from them it must be pretty bad. The shape was very poorly designed. Too thick, super bad, crooked and inaccurate grinding. Not sharpened and with a huge burr. It took hours to make something decent from it. The sheet is total crap too.
You will have a hard time convincing me they make decent products.

Kodama · May 10, 2019

I was finally able to install the reel properly. Had to do some small adjustments and shape the plate to mount the quick release on.

My buddy and I are pleased with the result. Let’s see how it performs over the next couple of weeks.

Bill McIntyre · May 10, 2019

Those spearq8 videos have taught me a lot. I have Abellan 110 and 120 guns and when I first got them I was amazed at how two bands can give such amazing power and range compared to the mid handled American guns I had used for years. I guess the high handle explains a lot. With the standard 14.5 mm small ID bands I don’t think I have appreciable side shift. But a friend recommended trying 15 mm bands for even more range so I tried it. I could feel significant recoil into my thumb, which a suppose results from the poor alignment of my arm with the gun. I don’t have much faith in my ability to modify the grip but the new US owner of Abellan, Harry K, promised new rotated handles over a year ago. So far they don’t seem to have materialized so I’m back to 14.5 mm.

Anyway, congratulations on finishing your project. Let us know how it works out.

Kodama · May 11, 2019

I have been thinking about buying a Abellan speargun for years. My friend just got a 120 and I am doing some work on it. They seem to work ok out of the box but actually I was amazed by the lack of eye to detail in the finish. A lot of things have to be improved and they are basically a build kit if you really want to make a great gun out of it.

Bill McIntyre · May 11, 2019

I'm curious what you think needs to be improved. Maybe it will suggest something that I want to do.

One thing I like is that its a wood gun. I've used wood for so long that I'm prejudiced, but it seem like I'm always drilling holes and adding stuff and you can't do that with pipe guns. On one Wong I had three different sets of stainless inserts for mounting three different reels over the years. It looked funky, but I wasn't limited by where the manufacturer mounted a reel.

I've added three things to my Abellan, two of them involving drilling holes. I embedded a loop of stainless steel down on the right side to route line under so as to keep it away from the bands and shaft. And I route the breakaway bungee through it so that a sideways pull on the float line can't pull the bungee off the line release. And over on the left side I mounted a loading assist like the ones that I've used on Wongs for years. Instead of doing the one hand on the band while you use the other had to push the butt to your chest, then reach out and grab the band with that second hand, this permits you to hip load with both hands to the loading assist, and then without even turning loose move the butt to the chest to finish loading. Its just so much easier and uses less energy. But I don't think most people would want the gun to come with those features- its just a personal preference of mine.

The only other thing I've done is replace that standard brutally thin butt pad with an after market pad made by a guy in Florida. It's a lot easier on your abdomen, and it moves the shark fins a bit away from your body to make loading as little easier.

When I saw spearq8's phones showing the distance between the shaft and the top of the handle on various guns it made me curious, so I measured some of my guns.That distance on the Abellan was 3/4", on the Ulusub 155RH its 1 1/4", and on a Wong 57.5"Magnum its 2 1/4". Those are significant differences. Its no wonder that I always wanted to back up the butt with my left hand on the Wong.

Modified Pathos 120 light blue water / reefgun

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