mouthfil or chest flexibility?

[cdavis]

I've hit a funny place in depth progression and would like some expert opinion. I dive exhale, depth is limited to just past 100ft and slowly getting deeper. I can't mouthfil and don't reverse pac to get equalization air(that works no better for me than mouthfil) I'm hands free most of the way, sometimes almost to my depth limit, equalizing with a combination of frenzel against the mask and btv. I've learned from hard experience that straining to equalize, tensing my diaphragm, etc will get me squeezed, so I'm very careful to do none of that. Usually on a max dive, when I turn it is because of chest pressure, the "vise." Sometimes I can equalize almost to the bottom, sometimes not, but often the last equalization would have carried me deeper than my chest will allow.

Here is my question. Will learning mouthfil help me? Taking air to fill my cheeks reduces what I have in my lungs and should simply reduce the depth at which the "vise" appears. If I can equalize all the way to my chest depth limit, how will mouthfil help?

I'm looking into chest flexibility exercises, any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks for your thoughts

Connor

 

[azapa]

ok Connor, to get things rolling I'll repeat the opinion I voiced on board: you need both.

Firstly Mouthfill is the only real way that I can see to get deeper than Frenzel to RV + ear-ride Apnea Academy approach this from a different angle though, and advocates a diaphragm based deep equalization, that I can't personally do. The mouthfill seems hard at first and I am only just getting it, but once you feel it working, it's cool. It does not just work one day and not the next, it is a gradual process. The key for me has been to reduce the equalization force to almost nothing, but repeat very frequently, probably just a little more than once per second. The whole use of little force relaxes everything to, so makes things easier. The second part of the trick (for me) has been to take the mouthfill shallow, way before RV, and play with it, ease into it, well before equalization gets hard. Don't forget I don't dive that deep, but I probably start EQuing with the mouthfill at around 20m. If I have already got into it, cheeks full of air, little frequent eq's, i can just keep going, but again, not that deep, but way past RV + ride or RV + Revers Pack + ride!

Chest: well, I am the worst chest flexibilizer here, but it is important several reasons. A big inhale comes from a flexible chest, but seeing as you dive with a neutral lung, there is no gain there for you. Secondly a flexible chest, or better controlled, will improve the way a contraction affects your dive. I'll leave the chest flexibility advantages to those that actually work on that area..

NOTE: don't ride your ears. I am just using the term because many people tend to do this, lot's don't get away with it.

 

[Kars]

I fully agree with Azapa. BTW you can practice the mouth fill technique in a pool too, doing exhale dives.

As for chest flexibility, and diaphragm flexibility, you can use your hands to hold part of your ribcage as through breathing you stretch the rest. With an assistant is goes much better though. With you laying on your belly he or she can fixate a few ribs - palms next to spine and fingers parallel applying pressure to the ribs as you breath and stretch the muscles in between the fixed and moving ribs. I use this for my dry cold deep water warm-up routine, omitting any in water warm-ups.
For diaphragm stretching just look for the bandi yoga practises, standing, bent a bit through the legs, rest hands on upper legs, exhale everything while bending forward, hold when eeeempty and lift chest and pull belly in as you straiten. With some practice you can learn to first let the abdominal muscles relax and come out and then to move them up-down and left-right. - also cool freaky freediver party trick
Don't forget to warm up before stretching.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[efattah]

Once you learn to mouthfill properly, you can 'blow out' your chest on a single dive and cause permanent lung damage. You will be able to equalize to almost any depth, therefore your chest flexibility (or O2, or legs) will be the limiting factor. Keep in mind also that a giant mouthfill at 15-17m on a FRC dive will WORSEN the chest squeeze, since you now start at residual volume at 15-17m; you have moved lung air into your mouth, reducing the amount of air in your lungs, and bringing an earlier, more powerful negative pressure in the lungs.

With slow careful progression all will be well. I can say from experience that even when I'm very flexible, straight frenzel fails around 33-40m on an FRC dive for me, based on how much or little air I start with. On the other hand I have done diaphragmatic frenzer equalizations at over 75m with packing.

 

[cdavis]

Great food for thought. Thank you all.

I'll try some of the bend over diaphragm stretches, have been doing diaphragm stretches in the pool, full forced exhale, sink to the bottom of the deep end, diaphragm stretch. I think that accomplishes much the same thing. Chest work will have to wait until I heal from the last trip, think I cracked a rib and it still hurts.

Eric's comment reinforces my dilemma. Mouthfil does take away from the max depth the chest will tolerate. If I can equalize without mouthfil to my chest's max, I don't see how mouthfil will help me.

Whatever, something is working. In 7 months I've gone from getting squeezed at 93 to being ok at 109. Not much diving in there either, very strange.

What are deep diaphragmic equalizations? "Manual of Freediving" talks about it but does not explain exactly how to do it. That sounds like what got me squeezed, so it must be something different. Can anyone explain it?

Connor

 

[laminar]

Hi Connor,

My two cents...

Doing exercise that involves heavy breathing, whether it is aerobic or panting recovery from anaerobic work, seems to help keep the rib cage elastic/flexible. It's why I swim a lot, otherwise I notice a great reduction in chest flexibility.

I personally stay away from negative pressure dives in the pool because the change in pressure on the lung changes far too rapidly for my taste. I haven't done one in over 5 years.

Since the amount of air you go down with is variable when FRC diving, you can, to some degree, take in a little extra air in anticipation of the mouthfill, so the sudden change in lung volume at depth isn't so sharp.

When diving, start by doing the mouthfill at 10-15m and then just stay in the 10-20m zone. Surprisingly, this does a lot for chest flexibility. I believe (from personal experience) that you gain make great gains in chest flexibility without having to push your body the max in terms of subjecting it to stronger pressures.

Work on the mouthfill - especially the skill of holding it in your mouth/cheeks without tension in the rest of your body. It is challenging to do so - Azapa's point about filling the mouth and making frequent mini-equalizations is very helpful.

My understanding of a deeper diaphragmatic equalizations is essentially not a mouthfill in the sense that we're talking here (ie. mouthfill once at a shallow depth for the rest of the dive), but rather drawing air up below 30m repeatedly as you descend - potentially much harder on the body since the effort to force air up into the sinuses/E-tubes requires more effort as you keep descending below RV.

Overall, I've found that emphasizing duration (time at depth) at a depth less than 100% of your max on FRC will do more for chest flexibility than negatives or max depth dives. For example, to relieve the vise feeling at 90-100 ft, spend time doing longer dives in the 65-85 ft range, looking to relax as much as possible.

I think the body, in this case, responds better to a gentler approach. Has worked for me, at least.

Pete

 

[Kars]

Another factor is how long you stretch and relax at depth. I like to make bucket profile dives, where I take a pause, rest and talk to my body to relax at my maximum depth. Like surface stretching holding the stretch for a minute is much more beneficial than just 'touch 'n go'.
Make sure you body is warm and warmed up, and you've got an able buddy. Also set an alarm so you know in time to go up


! Ok,I just noted that Pete already made the point I just wrote, good job Pete!

 

[cdavis]

I certainly agree with the "time at depth" and "relax at depth." Both have helped me. I'll try the stretching part. Here's to 40 meters on exhale! Maybe I can actually get there before I get there full lung. Now I just gotta find some more time for depth.

Outside of that and back to my original question. It seems like maybe we are talking past each other, either I'm not hearing the answer or the question isn't being heard.. Let me restate another way. The direct effect of mouthfil is to allow a diver to equalize below the level he can reach with other methods and (other things not interfering) down to his limit of chest compression. Because I can equalize to my chest limit already, without mouthfil, I don't see mouthfils direct benefit to me.

Are there other, indirect, benefits of mouthfil that would benefit me? For example, would mouthfil allow a greater level of something (relaxation?) that would allow greater chest compression and extend my chest compression depth? Other benefits?

Connor

 

[fcallagy]

A goo d book but not very well known is Federica Mannas breathing for freediving, its almost exclusivly a book on stretching for freedving. I have only used a small few exercises due to laziness mainly but defo worth a read if you can get your hands on it.

 

[Kars]

Ok, just to help to hopefully clear up a few things - I hope I get it right this time

Chest and diaphragm flexibility is important.
You can and will reach a level of flexibility and relaxation that will dissolve the 'pressure' feeling on the body. This will allow you to dive with comfort easily below Residual Volume (RV).

Now the difficulty is to have some air to push to ears when you're below RV depth, the depth where you can no longer use your diaphragm to push air down into your nose and mouths. There are two techniques that allow us to dive and equalise below RV: Reverse packing and 'the mouth full". The reverse packing is the most hazerdous, creating a vacuum in the mouth sucking the last air to the mouth when everything is already so empty and under tension. The second technique, mouth full, means you fill up your mouth with air BEFORE you get to RV depth. After you closed your throat you use the air in your mouth to equalise and let the diaphragm and chest relax as you hit RV and sink beyond.

When to take your "mouthful" ?
Well, lets add some numbers.
Total Lung capacity: 6 L
Residual Volume: 2L

Now with full lungs you'll hit RV at 20m (3 bar)
Maybe you can hold 250ML of air in your mouth, so you should take your mouthful 6/2.25 =2,667 Bar, = @ 16,6M

Now for practice, learning all the intricacies I suggest you dive with near full lungs, and already start with a mouthful at the surface, do a couple of equalisations, and take another mouthful, more equalisations, more mouthfuls. Go down slow in FIM with fins on taking your time to practice the mouthful technique. When you got it, you can test it, doing only the last mouthful and let yourself sink a few meters beyond RV, where you stop, relax and see how everything is working for your body. You can expect to feel tight in the chest and diaphragm, but with focus and practice this will dissolve with time. At the same time you got some nice cheeks full of air allowing you to equalise your ears without stressing and harming the lungs with the force you used to need to get that last bit of air up.
This is the moment your freediving enters a new level of depth, below RV.
Now you can equalise beyond RV!

With time and practice your skills, flexibility, timing will improve the technique allowing you to take bigger mouthful's at greater depths.

To follow the example of this calculation, a mouth volume of 0,25L at 3 bar is still 0,125L at 6 bar (50m!) Granted you'll loose some air for your sinuses and ears, but you see that you can really go deep with just a mouthful of air to equalise.
When you take your 0,250 L at 10m (2 bar) you still would have 0,083 L minus the air needed for the ears.
Just imaging you'll be able to do the same fill at 25m or 30m?

Mouthful technique Advantages:
The mouthful allows you to relax all the big chest and diaphragm muscles beyond the RV depth. Increasing overall relaxation and energy conservation greatly! Your glide phase will become like a blissful static with only some minor head interior muscle to work.
Another great advantage is you greatly reduce the chance of lung and trachea injuries.
Because you can relax the whole body, it will become totally comfortable with almost any pressure, you won't feel crushed any more, just relaxed and at home.

At your Service Connor!

Kars

 

[cdavis]

Hmmmm.

So, what you are saying is that using mouthfil WILL increase the chest compression depth limit. And that is so because it allows for complete relaxation of the diaphragm/chest muscles. I can buy that. If I can ever learn mouthfil, it should increase my depth progression speed.

On thinking all this over, I suspect that the reason for my relatively large amt of progress in the last 6 months is chest relaxation. I've been working very hard not to have any tension at all in my chest/diaphragm on deep dives. Not totally convinced that going to mouthfil will result in more relaxation that I have now. I don't need to move my diaphragm at all to get air to equalize. The way I frenzel brings up a small amt of air each time and this seems to provide enough to keep equalizing to my chest limit. If this is right, I should be able to keep going deeper (slow progression) and continue to be able to equalize to or at least near my chest compression limit.

Thanks for the help.

Connor

 

[azapa]

Connor. maybe picking at bones here, but I am still not really sure why "the chest vice" is your limiting factor. I don't really know what you mean because I have not personally felt that as a reason to stop and turn. I also think that, being on FRC and still Equing head down at +30m you must be secretly (you don't realize it) either reverse packing or doing diaphragmatic frenzel. Do Kars's math on your lung volumes and you must agree. Although you think you are not using the diaphragm, you are, and that is tiring your chest, combine that with the previous squeeze experience and you are hypersensitive to the area.

I would say the best cure would be lots more deeper diving, in the ranges Pete mentioned. I'll spot you

 

[Kars]

I think when one is healthy and sufficiently trained there is no chest and diaphragm compression depth limit, because of: flexibility, relaxation and the bloodshift mechanism.
Consider Herbert's NL dives, 22+ bar. ~14L lungs (packed to the max)

From your equalisation description I get the impression you're now using the water pressure to push the air from the lungs to your throat and mouth, and using your tongue to push it to your ears. Or do like Azapa said using your diaphragm or reverse pack. Though that I've heard of some extreme examples, such as William Truebridge, who succeed in bringing air, reverse packing, from the lungs to the mouth at extreme depths, I still think it's beneficial to at least try to learn the mouthful technique. Since you already know how to Frenzel, I think you'll very quickly learn this rather simple manoeuvre. In fact the way you describe your current technique makes me think you are already doing it with small amounts of air!*

Oh and another little tip for when the chest gets a bit tight, lift it up and draw the diaphragm in. I need to do this otherwise my chest lower ribs block the diaphragm from moving under my chest.

Let us know your discoveries and progression

Kars

*Doing that I cannot go deeper than about 40m, on full lungs.

 

[sgnips]

A goo d book but not very well known is Federica Mannas breathing for freediving, its almost exclusivly a book on stretching for freedving. I have only used a small few exercises due to laziness mainly but defo worth a read if you can get your hands on it.

Hi all, very interesting topic, sorry i now don't have much time to report my experience, but will make soon

just a second to specify the author's name is FEDERICO MANA

bye

 

[cdavis]

This is helping me sort some of the ideas running around in my head. Thanks for the support.

I've also run the numbers on lung size at depth. Given the uncertainty about what exactly is my RV and amt of inhale, it is just possible that about 100 ft is where I should run out of air, but not likely, should be shallower. Here is the fun part. As chest/diaphragm flexibility/blood shift improves, effective RV gets smaller and the depth I reach RV gets deeper. I think this is fundamental to recent progress.

When I frenzel, a small amt of air comes up from the chest,much less than what I do to reverse pac, but its in the right place to get to my ears. As I get deeper, the amt of air coming up gets smaller and smaller, my eqs get smaller and smaller and both eventually stop. When I do what I think of as reverse packing, I can fill my cheeks just fine in very deep water, near 100 ft half lung, but can't get the air from my cheeks to my ears, does me no good.

I used to do a combo of diaphragm and frenzel at depth, but stopped the diaphragm portion when I realized that was leading to squeeze. Pulling the diaphragm up(diaphragm stretch) as I descend seems to work, but not at the bottom. I feel best with a completely relaxed chest/diaphragm at the bottom and (maybe important) I think I'm getting better at that relaxation. I'm pretty sure now that recent fast progress is related to completely relaxing the chest/diaphragm at depth.

I think Azapa is pretty close to what is happening. As my RV depth gets deeper as a result of better relaxation, etc, the ability to pull up small amts of air via frenzel also gets deeper. Maybe the "vise" is just a failure of relaxation. For sure, during squeeze incidents, I can feel things getting tighter even after I turned and depth is actually getting less. I hope all that is really true. If it is, 40+ meters exhale here I come, mouthfil or no mouthfil.

A wonderfully helpful discussion.

Is Mana's book in english?


Connor

 

[fcallagy]

yeah the book is in english

 

[cdavis]

thanks Feargus, I'll check into it.

For those who wonder why go to all this trouble when learning mouthfil would solve the problem, I can't seem to get my soft palette to open when epiglottis is closed.
Everything else is easy. I know what is needed, I just can't seem to do it. Suspect this is related to the way I equalize. Near 60 years of unconscious habitual movement is very hard to change.


Connor

 

[Jon]

Re: mouthful or chest flexibility?

Connor,

I would go ahead and try and learn how to mouthful if I were you. There's nothing saying that you have to use it, but I've always found that it's better to have too many tools in your tool box than not enough. Learning how to clear on mouth-fill is just another one of those tools that you can choose from when the time arises.

Just my $0.02,

Jon

 

[Kars]

Learning mouthful is not that difficult, as you already know how to bring it up and hold, you're near half way.

What you can do right here is exhales everything, hold your nose, reverse pack to fil up your mouth, and than as your head is tilted down try to do a gentle Frenzel as you keep the chest and diaphragm relaxed. You've now successfully transferred the air from the mouth to the ears. Try it head up in a pool, try different head positions, different pressures etc, as you scale up the skill and difficulty.

Furthermore I must express my utmost admiration of your impressive equalisation abilities being able to do 100ft on FRC without the Mouthful technique! Seems like I could learn from you in this regard!

 

[sgnips]

Learning mouthful is not that difficult, as you already know how to bring it up and hold, you're near half way.

i quote Kars, i learned it trying for a few weeks every day (and almost at any hour) on land but couldn't make it work in the water
suddenly, six months ago i made an easy and relaxed dive, and it happened!!

now my favourite excercise is walking up the stairs to my office (3 floors) on empty lungs and full cheeks, open palate, closed epiglottis... i must be a strange-looking clerk, uh?