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MT3 or MT4

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Aquatic Tetrapod
Oct 24, 2002
Hello everyone! I've been lurking here for a couple months and thought I would finally register. I have a question about spearguns that I think you guys can help me answer.

First, I'll introduce myself and give you some background.

I have been "snorkling" since I was in the 8th grade and making trips to LaJolla cove and just you standard sandy beaches. Then, when I found out I was going to get into UC Santa Barbara I thought that it would be a great chance to get into freediving since there are beautifull kelp forests and sometimes very clear waters here. On my first dive I actually saw a school of white seabass! I started out with a JBL travel pole-spear. Then I wanted to go after calicos so I bought an Omer. I later that year lost it when the clip that attached to my float line failed in a surf zone :( So that summer while at home I replaced it with a sawed-off magnum because it was cheap, big mistake. I caught a few fish with it but it has NO power. I can't even aim horizontally in the water because gravity pulls the shaft down too quickly.

So now in the fall quarter of my sophomore year here the visibility sucks. I don't know what happened by the clear waters of last fall are nowhere to be seen. I'm getting frustrated with the weather here so I decided to get on a boat for Santa Cruz island where the waters are almost always 40-60 feet vis. So this trip cost me $80. There is no way I'm wasting that money by using my crappy gun.

So I decided I want a metal tech. I want to get something good because I don't want to replace another gun (This time I'm double zip-tieing it to the float line). I also love the midhandle design after my magnum. I hate the magnum but it is nice to hold. They are a little more expensive but I'm willing to pay more if it's a quality gun. I'm just not sure if I want a MT3 or MT4. The MT4 supposedly gives you 4' more range than the MT3. But I was thinking, if the MT3 goes to 20', why would I even need that extra range. But are the figures on the riffe handout accurate? I want to be able to get white seabass, calicos, and sheepshead in the kelp forest. This means I need a fair amount of range and manueverability. But I would also like to go to Cortez Banks and get some yellowtail from time to time. The guys and the Bluewater Hunter store here in Santa Barbara said that by getting an MT4, I could definately go after fish like these and even be happy with it in places like the gulf of mexico. Could I expect this sort of performance of the MT3? I've seen that one of the members here has speared some BIG fish with an MT0. I'm not afraid of developing skill to get close to fish, actually I think I'm decent at it already but I also don't want to get to a point where the gun is going to be limiting me, and spoiling an expensive boat trip.

So, is an MT3 going to meet my needs? And if not, would an MT4 be much more ungainly going thru the kelp.

BTW, I still have my polespear and the dreaded magnum for when the vis sucks so I don't need a really short gun. Although, the stories of the MT0 are tempting ;) I wish I could afford both.

Hello Chad,

How come u been stalking for months and only now u pop out...?..:D :D . You think we are white sea bass...he he he.

That MT Zero is mine....nope I did not shoot from close range, I shot it from about 15 feet ( 4.5 meters ). Me scared see big barracuda teeth upclose...;).

I don't know kelp diving but I seen it on video, I am sure a short gun is better there. I tell you what, I'll save u sometime reading on so many post, if I were you MT3 is good enough and please buy/pay for the screw insert on the stock for later if u want to buy the Stabilizer Wing Kit, that round pizza. This kind of drilling is to be at the factory applied/job, pay a bit money up front and enjoy hassle free upgrade later. U won't want to pay 2 way shipping of an MT3 to Riffe and ur home just to get it drilled.

MT3 is a damn nice size, it is almost like the teak mid-handle Hawaii.

Buy an MT3 with open track, 5/16" threaded shaft model. Order it with the aluminum muzzle in lieu of the original plastic muzzle. If you special order it and pay some deposit I am sure the shop will be willing to accept. While doing that, ask the shop also to order extra wrap of shooting line, so total is 3 wraps. That gives you 23 feet of shooting line, shaft length not included yet. This way u waste no money keeping a useless plastic muzzle if blue water hunting is what you intend the gun to do at Cortez Bank later. BEWARE, the MT3 will sink with that new aluminum muzzle. If you ever rig ur gun with a float, please use the breakaway, don't let the fish drag ur gun along with the float.

Order a 5/16" enclosed track kit, under US$20 I think. Install that 5/16 enclosed track for the 5/16" shaft, keep the open track some where safe. Now buy extra rubbers so that you can install a total of 5 x 9/16 rubbers. Don't go for 5/8 rubbers cause ur MT3 will come standard with 3 of 9/16 rubbers, why waste money buying 5/8 rubbers.

I can almost guarantee that 4 x 9/16 bands on MT3 using 5/16 shaft will not cause shaft whip......WHY ??? Because my friend is using a #Hawaiian at 4 bands with 5/16 shaft and MT3 is a dimensional twin of #Hawaiian.

I am betting that the enclosed track for the 5/16 shaft will allow you to push the limit of the MT3 with 5 x 5/16 rubbers without whipping the shaft. At 5 rubbers with 5/16 shaft, that MT3 will shoot as far, probably further than MT4. But for safety sake, take a Riffe shooting range based on 3 bands but use 4 bands instead and believe the range of their chart as accurate. Discount....... discount..... .

When one day u want to go to Cortez Bank, ur next upgrade will be a 3/8 shaft with 3 wraps of shooting line and a Stabilizer Wing Kit....see that is what the pre-drilled hole is for. If ur trip cost u some good money, I think that 3/8 shaft must be paired with a Riffe Ice Pick spearhead. For Kitto Slip Tip, ask Uncle Sven (Icarus Pacific ) , me no have that kind of slip tip, so me no idea how it grab fish. I think price wise the same.

As for the power of a 3/8 shaft fired out of an MT3 with 5 x 5/16 rubbers, I can confirm that it will be a 6 meter / 20 feet deadly. I mean it will easily punch a thick 60 lbs tuna mid-body. How do I know, because I have #4 Baja which uses 60" x 3/8" shaft with 4 x 5/8 bands. Mass to mass ofs shaft and power to power of the rubbers, you will get 91% of the power of my#4 Baja. Riffe stated that my #4 Baja with 5/16 shaft and 3 x 5/8 bands will shoot 23 feet/7 meters effective. With my add on of another rubber and thicker 3/8 shaft I am looking at an estimated Riffe version of effective shooting at 26 feet or 8 meters.

As I said earlier, read the Riffe range chart but add one band for safety, so we come back to 23 feet / 7 meters effective for my fully rigged #4 Baja....so sweet and conservative.

Now at 91% of my #4 Baja, ur fully rigged MT3 should be able to do 21 feet / 6.3 meters confirmed effective as per my own version............sue me if I lie :D :D

You will be wondering 2 extra bands (total ) and a thicker shaft for MT3, how come I say only 21 feet of shooting range while Riffe mentioned 20 feet. My reference is full shaft penetration all the way to the shooting line at a 6mm plywood plus the shaft hit some rock behind it, which recently in the field it proved to slice a +-60 lbs tuna with 30 inch of the shaft exiting on the other side of the body when shot from 18-20 feet from my #4 Baja ( not mine, one of my friends )

For more info Kapiten Rigdiver and Uncle Sven has MT-4 and I am sure they are rigged to maximum power, they will tell you their own experience.

Remember 3/8 shaft and 5/16 has a very-very different punch at range for that kind of 55" long shaft.:naughty

Lastly, watch out for the kick of the Riffes......... If Omer and Sawed Off JBL Magnum were ur only experience......2 hands shot would be good for you.

Good luck.........That will be US$2.00 for the info........ No fake bill please.

Don't buy the MTZero like mine if u get good viz, not worth the money and it is not that easy to shoot at 5 bands single handed on such a small gun unless u r as sick as me playing and shooting plywood board all the time for practice......:head..........but I love it. I can say it must be the world's most powerful band gun for a 32" / 81cm size....it is so cute and look harmless. If ur location have strong current and murky water and big fish....this is the tool. I think I want to rub off the Riffe brand and put an "Alexander " there :D :D
"Big Fish with MT0"

Guess who????:D :D I am sure now IYA's tongue is lying on the floor.Is it like that in English?
Anyway you guys got me.


Meta techs are good guns you can put allumimium muzzle wings and enclosed track on it.It's still cheap when compare with other midhandles.But...There is one negative side of these guns according to me.Their handles are too close to the butt so its not really midhandle its between.
May be i am wrong coz i observe this from the net.

Length issue.50-56 inch is really doesn't matter, they are pretty smillar.You can get little extra range and power with MT4 on the other hand little more manuverability with MT3.

Can MT3 shoot big fishes? Absolutely yes.Just look the pic on the Riffe homepage.But its much more depend on the diver's skill.There are some guys who take the bigger fish with MT3 than ISLAND users.

So it really doesn't matter MT3 or MT4 they are both good and can shoot almost anything that you will see underwater.5 or 6 inch will not effect much your diving style.

Yes MT3 may have 20 feet range even may be more with more power bands and bigger shaft.But don't try to shoot the fish from that far unless you are expert on your gun.

I remmember when i want to buy Riffe.I exactly in same doupt.I couldn't decide Riffe Hawaian or Nokaoi.I sent mail to the Julie Riffe and asked about it.She said that both of these guns are very smillar, you can use both of them in rocky areas where you will need better swing gun.She said one more thing; "All the fishes that i shoot is in the range of 10 to 15 feet".

One more issue. Riffe Nokaoi has power between MT3 and MT4 and it must swing easier because its handle is more close to the middle than MT's.On the other hand it hasn't closed track kit. Price is bit high compare to the MT's but teak really looking cool :cool: .As you see you must sacrifice something to gain another benefits.

Me? I didn't decide which one to buy.There are many different guns around.I am not very experianced spero. I didn't make as many as dive to decide which gun.I am not sure about what will be my future preys.First i will do few dive and observe my preys and their habbits.Then i will decide which gun.I also advice you to do the same.Its better to spend 80 or 160 bucks to investigate before buying expensive gun.You can also ask some of these guys.They may tell you what to expect in your future dive spot to shoot.

I am really wondering what are there in deep Medeteranean Sea.
Hehehehe IYA post his reply while i am writing.What a speed ! !!
Hey IYA can you make such a review for Nokaoi for me? I just wondering....
I heard some where that nokaoi has some shooting problems.They said it intents to shoot low
but i dunno if its rigged standart or max.I send mail to Jay Riffe about it.He says no it isn't true.
May be your nokaoi friend has some experieance with it. Nokaoi with 9/32 shat and three 5/8 bands what a freak setup.:D (4) 4/8 bands with 5/16 and 3/8 shaft. Is it overload the stock? May be that setup cause the muzzle whip.
Boy o boy did you just open THE can of worms around here Blue! Both guns are great. I have an MT 4 with aluminum muzzle, 4 5/8 bands and the 60" 3/8 shaft. It is a large gun for certain(to me of course) The stock length difference between the 3 and 4 is negligable(4") in MHO. What it all boils down to is being honest with yourself about your needs. Sven should have more input about the type of hunting you do but from what I've read alot of guys use small bluewater guns, i.e. Wong Mahi's ect.(60" range) for WSB. If that is the case the 4 shouldnt be too much gun. Good luck hunting for your hunting tool...

The one question I can definitively answer for you is that you would definately be happy with the 4 in the Gulf of Mexico...but then again you wouldnt frown with a 3 either:D :D :D
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wow, thanks guys. That's a lot of info to digest. Well Iyadiver, your post seems to have convinced me that the MT3 should be powerfull enough. Also, Murat's comment about Julie Riffe makes me reconsider if I really will ever reach out and touch something that far anyways. Now I want to save some money for some of the upgrades too ;) I definately would want to get the holes drilled for the stabilizers for later and for 20.00 I would definately add the enclosed track kit but I'm not yet sure about the aluminum muzzle. Does anyone know how much that costs? Could I install it myself to save money? Could I put 4 bands on with the standard muzzle and add the aluminum later when I want 5 and the 3/8 shaft?

Also, how hard would it be to make my own stabilizer wings? It's just wood after all.?.?

Oh, one last thing. Has anyone had any success painting these guns for further corrosion protection/camoflage without having the paint just scrape off in the water?

Thanks again all.
ahhh Santa Barbara...

where the median house price is $635,000.00

Hey Blue!
Here's the skinny on your very enviable situation...

Just coming back from a week down in SB at the Islands and off the beach and the Ranch, and I can relate to you're being bummed about the viz... el Nino is back in force. But you've already seen the whites so you're ahead of the game.

Dakine SB setup is an Island or a Metal Tech # 4 with floater wings. Don't sweat the aluminum muzzle, the stock is fine for the 3- 9/16" amber bands and the 5/16" shaft with a small flopper tip or an Ice Pick if you're bucks up. You'll read that some of us use 5/8" and even 3/4" bands and all kinds of trick , often home made stuff, and it usually just means that we have nothing to do with our weekends far from the beach. Use cable for the shooting line as the kelp is murder on the 3-400 pound mono and just attach a 100 foot float line with a small "peanut buoy"- it's a small float like what's used for the swimming pool lanes, on the end. A larger inflatable float will just get buggered up in the kelp from you going up and over and around... Don't think that you need a breakaway release to attach the floatline too, just let the gun go if it gets too big. It'll float. Using the stabilizer wings, an extra $100 bones, will keep things all nice and smooth.

My personal take on the Metal Tech series is that they're bazookas that will tolerate a bunch of grief and misuse, such as being used for chin ups in the low rent room/bars/gyms there in IV. Leave it in the truck, forget to wash it, let it sit in the Sun, whatever, it's good to go. But it'll extract a bunch of energy from you lugging the thing around- it's like a harbor chick...it ain't the lightest, swiftest thing on the block, but sometimes, ya know?

My personal SB recipe for laying a fillet on the table is the above setup, with an Island, as it's lighter, floats without adding more stuff to it, thus costing less than a Metal Tech w/o the add ons and there's a definite coolness factor to letting that sweet thing develop some driftwood patina from it being used rather than hanging on the wall. When the viz closes in, just choke back on it in your arms and lay waste to the flatties there off Ledbetter.

Andy at Blue Water hunter in the Harbor will second all this and hook you up. Tell him I said so. And say hi to Francisco at Joes. There you go.

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What did I tell ya...Kapiten Rig and Uncle Sven will feed u info I lack....:D :D

Won't call him dear Uncle for nothing.....

All MT series will take 4 x 9/16 or 3 x 5/8 rubbers in standard plastic muzzle. The aluminum muzzle cost like $60 something.

The muzzle can be removed using Philip #2 screwdriver, urself. The enclosed track or open track just slide in nicely, no glue nothing, the stock has a groove to accept it.

My friend's No Ka Oi has no muzzle reinforcement. Technicaly can't test with 4 x 9/16 rubbers. It has a reel, kinda heavy for me. Someday will do a review for you.

Metal Tech butt is 3" further away from our chin compared to Mid-Handle Teak, I like it this way cause it then won't hit my chin if I shoot stupid...:eek:
Standart muzzle takes 4 9/16 bands or three 3/8 bandss
Alluminium muzzle is 64 bucks and takes 4 3/8 or 5 9/16.Iya is saying that there is a way for 6 9/16 bands but i dunno if it has any benefit.Probably not.Who want to load 6 bands other than those tuna guys.
I don’t know about the safety issue of the aluminum muzzle over the plastic. Obviously Riffe feels there is an issue, because they make the aluminum muzzle as an accessory. Since the plastic muzzle fits directly at the end of the stock, with no overhang (like a JBL) it looks like a strong design.

As far as how much you could physically squeeze into the muzzle, it’s a lot. All you have to do is put the shaft in the gun, with the safety on of course, and load each band (stretch and attach it to the spear) as you put them on. The stretching reduces their diameter to about ½ leaving a lot more room for the next bands.

I think upgrading to 5/8” bands from the stock 9/16” is a good move, because for one, some shops don’t even carry the 9/16” bands and two, it makes a longer gun easier to load. This is because on the MT-5 I have, it is impossible for me to grasp the bands with the butt of the gun in my chest. The distance is just too far. Mathew at Pirate Scuba said he is 6’ 4” and he still can’t reach it. So to load this gun in the water you have to grab a band with one hand just above the wishbone string on one side and push the butt with your other hand into your chest. Then take your hand you just pushed the butt with and grab the other side of the bank above the wishbone. Then you can pull the band down and load it.

What happens with the 9/16” bands is they easily slide in the butt when you do the first part of the maneuver, which means the other side gets pulled way up the gun making the reaching of it very hard. The 5/8” bands slide a little less and I suppose the ¾” bands would be even better.

Another valuable point can be learned from the loading long gun procedure I just outlined. It takes a lot more work and time. Its good to evaluate if the extra distance and power the larger gun gives is worth the extra effort and time to load. The MT-3 stock is 12” shorter than the MT-5, but it also comes with bands that are 6” shorter so it looks like you only get 6” less distance from the butt to the band ends. If I’m figuring that wrong, someone please correct me.

If you are so lucky to be able to hold both a MT-3 and MT-4, see if you can reach the bands with butt in your chest. I would venture to say that if you can with the 3 and not the 4, you would shoot a lot more fish with the 3 just because of the time and energy saved. Remember every bit of extra energy you spend on the surface exhausts your resources more and makes you take longer recovery times which equals less dives and opportunities.
My 2 cents.

Rigdvr, I would like to hear if you are able to reach the bands and load your MT-4 with the butt in your chest?
Yeah... his being able to handle a butt on his chest could be handy for kk'03 rofl

At 6'-3", loading a long gun such as my Island :inlove involves a bit of gymnastics refined over time. I load from my gut and grasp the bands at the rubber/wishbone juncture, as it tends to lead the wishbone along the shaft and saves me from the dreaded, "OK, now that the band is stretched, why won't the wishbone just cooperate!!" :blackeye Having the stabilizers on it also lets me do a very carefull and controlled pogo stick thing where I place my fins' footpockets against them and use the legs to do the work, a very nice thing when the 5/8' bands get swapped for the 3/4" slings. :crutch

Much has to be made about being able to load in the water as you can get yourself in all kinds of positions that will give you some added reach and leverage. If it's a bit of a stretch in the shop, it's a piece of cake in the water...

All that aside, remember that the length of the gun really only determines the length of the bands ability to stretch and that's what determines the power and the range of the gun. believe me, if I could get an honest 15 feet from a 24" gun, I'd switch in a minute! The length of the stock should be considered a platform from which alll the mechanicals are fastened and perform their functions, but it all comes down to how far you can stretch those bands. A Mid Handle's ability to reach out 20' :hmm is a function of the long length of the stock, allowing the bands to stretch that distance, and necessitates the use of the handle being in the "middle" of the stock to allow you to control the thing. If it weren't for that we'd, (or I,) would be using Competitior series, rear handle crutches, er, guns. That extra foot or so back along your arm is just to let those bands stretch more, and it allows you to use 60-some inch guns where there's only 48 inches of room.

And Julie Riffe :inlove is right in that 15' and less is the smooth way to ensure that what you aim for will end up in the boat.

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Being a big man, do you really think the stabilizer helps your accuracy? I have never felt like I missed with my MT5 because of kickback, but then I have never tried stabilizer wings either.

Your pogo stick loading method might be worth the stabilizer alone! My legs and lats are strong enough to stretch any band if I can get in a position to use them.
Having used my gun(s) with and without stabilizers and wings and ballasting, I maintain that anything you can do to provide a level, smooth and stable platform to launch from will benefit. Prayer ain't a bad thing either.

While it may look like they will slow down your abilty to track with the gun, the stabliizer doesn't take away so much as it adds. If there's a need, you just turn your wrist 90 degrees, so you pretty much have to be set up for what comes along. Out this way we pretty much depend on sneaking up on these things or having them swim by with the kelp hiding us, so swinging these things isn't as much of a factor as being able to lob a shaft 12-18 feet straight and fast without it going all over Hell and breakfast, and that's a BIG thing with 5/16" shafts, and 5/8 and 3/4 bands, especially when they're shortened. If you're happy with things the way they are, great and you have lots of company. Many Riffe owners do nothing more than rinse their stuff off and store it, a testimony to their quality. Then there are those of us that like to tinker a bit.

On the foot peg thing, it's an old time, big gun, as in REALLY BIG GUN, thing to drill and install a 6 or 8 inch, 3/4"diameter piece of stainless rod a foot or so behind the band slot to act as a foot peg and help to ballast the thing. Often the addition of a little weight on the nose will dampen the gun's desire to come up and throw the tail of the shaft elsewhere, which is what the stabilizer wings do. The aluminum muzzle does this and provides the additional strength to allow a larger, longer slot for additional bands to be added, something I still dick around with for now other reason than a 3/8 shaft just eats energy to get it going, but happily dissipates it in the side of whatever it hits.

I'm amused at the Metal Techs I saw this last week down in So Cal, (where all the fish have MBA's), almost all of them sporting the wood floaters not so much to get them to float, but for that endlessly classy look.:cool: whatever. While I've yet to go the route of wood on my metal muzzled #4, I did feel like I was hanging on to it a bit tighter than my tres salty woodies.

BTW...I enjoyed looking at the tip you concocted and think for a tougher fleshed fish ala cobia, or a Blue fin's gill plate, it'd be a good experiment. The goal out here with sea bass and yellowtail tuna is to not tear the backside of the fish out and hope the tension of the muscle and skin remain intact while they run around the kelp stalks if you don't outright nail 'em and to let us gently play and retrieve them.

sven of the salty woody

I thought I was sure about the MT3 but Sven uses an MT4 in the same environment. Hmmmm. I got a tape measure out and compared the lengths with my current gun and think I would be more comfortable with the MT3 but I could get used to an MT4 if I had to. Sven, do you think I need an MT4 for white sea bass? They are spooky but I should be able to get at least within 15' of them shouldn't I. I've only seen them while not hunting and fish can usually sense when you are so I wonder..

btw, did you get any decent vis while down here? I haven't been able to find anyplace good lately, course i've been studying for midterms all this week. Damn midterms!

if I could get an honest 15 feet from a 24" gun, I'd switch in a minute!

Sorry Uncle Sven, in the mean time the minimum is 32"...:D :D but u must use a 36" x 3/8" long shaft, this I found out by accident.

At my body height of 167cm or 5 foot 6.6" I don't think I can load a MT5 or an Island with 5/8 rubbers. My #4 Baja which is the same size as and Island but having the wishbone tab some good distance forward is about the max I can ever handle ( and I get rest tab assistance when I get tired or wants to do 3.5 bands ), in terms of loading. I can't even load #4 Baja with a hip style,I need my stomach to do it. Any mid-handle type rear trigger like an Island will kill me in loading, I almost can't see the sharkfins/tabs even when having the butt on my tummy.

As for balance, nothing beats a mid handle which suits a person size and arm length............nice nice.....but me got to sacrifice some power to live with a rear handle because I do not do two hands shot even at 4 x 5/8 bands, it is like a bad habit. Some of my friends with 4 x 5/8 bands get swollen shooting hand after each trip, where the thumb meet the index finger. :confused:

I guess what work for one is one's best.
Don, I have never tried to load straight from the chest and my guess would be no. Use the hell out of the rest tab though:D .

Im not sure what you have planned for KK03 but I didnt like the sound of that one Sven...:naughty
How do you get yours to the rest tab in the water? The only way I can get mine to the rest tab, if I don’t use the one hand method I described earlier, is to load it in the boat. If use the earlier described method, I might as well pull it all the way to final tab.

Riffe puts the rest tab way to close to the butt end of the spear for me. I e-mailed Riffe asking if they could put the rest tab 18 ½” from the butt end of the spear and also if they would put a hole in the rest tab so I could try attaching my line there. They e-mailed back saying no problem about the hole, but they didn’t respond to my question about the placement of the tab.

I ordered my new shaft from Pirate Scuba, because it’s cheaper than ordering directly from Riffe. I gave Mathew real detail description of what I wanted and I’m sure he understood, because he repeated it back to me. The spear came with the rest tab only 12”from the butt. I guess the only way I’m going to get it where I want it is to pay someone to cut it off and weld it there.
Hard loading


Cmon guys you are complaining about your multi rubber riffes being hard to load (Ha Ha). If you had a go at my 110 Ra with a 50cm 20mm rubber you will be grateful that you own a multi rubber gun. Seriously though Bluewater if your worried about your Mt3 or 4 With 9/16 or even 5/8 bands being hard to load don't cos techinique is far more important then strength. I can only bench press 50kg, my mate does sets of 90kg and he can't load my 110. Its technique.


Ps I want to see one of these elusive wsb
Hi Ivan,

They are talking of hard loading not in terms of hard to pull, it is hard to reach by hand with a butt having to be on the chest. At 157cm, MT5 is long and stretching rubbers that long at 50kg pressure each and having to do it 4 times in a row is quite tiring. If more than 3 bands are on the shaft, the bulging ends of the 3 rubbers on the tabs tends to get in the way of the 4th rubber.
While u need only to pull ur rubber for +-60 cm for ur RA110 to lock it on the wishbone slot/tab, MT5 owners need to pull +- 110 cm and 4 of those fat 50kg rubbers. The hand reach to actualy allow ur hand to grab the wishbone at about 115 cm distance from the butt is the problem, not many people have hand that long. The total effort to pull 4 bands and strecth it for another 110 cm x 4 times is not fun, while an RA110 need only one time pull for +-60 cm. It is not all about raw muscle power, some people have short hand........this is where the problem starts.....he he he he...like me have short hand. My maximum reach is about 95 cm at most even with shoulders leaning forward and I am sure I can never load a Riffe Blue Water, not strength wise but hand reach wise.

I seen how people load 170+cm Alexander on video and it is unique and here you need muscle and technique.

Judging by RA trigger safe pressure requirement, I think ur 20m rubber might be ( maybe, just maybe ) only as tough to pull as a Riffe 5/8 (16mm ) bands. One day try Riffe 3/4 (19mm ) rubber and you will be surprised cause it require 61kg of pull. ;)

Different rubber's brands pressure rating can not be compared in terms of its size/diameter, we need to know the pressure rating, the modulus formulation differ from manufacturer to manufacturer.
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