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Muscle fiber types

xristos

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2013
129
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Greece
There is debate in freediving, and I stumbled upon one in another forum, is it unaerobic or aerobic sport.
But why does it matter?
Most will answer, to train appropriately.

In my opinion the answer lies in fiber types. The less slow oxidative fibers we have, the lower Vo2max (?) will be and therefore higher anaerobic glycolysis contribution in the total energy for the dive for a given effort intensity. Having more fast glycolytic fiber will mean more capacity for managing unaerobic glycolysis waste products and acidity. (?) The aerobic system will always keep up with it's share of the load for athlete.
But... does lowering Vo2max equal higher basal metabolism O2 consumption?

How do we train our fast glycolytic fibers? There are many ways people go about it, sprints, high weights low reps, medium to high reps, occlusion training, explosive lifting, etc. What is the most sound method(s) in your opinion bearing in mind we aim to sustain the most anaerobic work with no recovery for the duration.

Are strength exercises performed on breathhold (small % of 1RM) a piece in the puzzle?

How far from competition should we train such adaptations ?
In my opinion, far(1st of 4 mesocycles), with the exception of apnea strength exercises. What do you think?
 
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7BDiver

Member
Sep 5, 2019
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Sandpoint Idaho
Training muscles is very straight forward but is only a small part of the equation, metabolic efficiency is essential when conservation of O2 is the goal. Most of this is achieved by a healthy diet, metabolic syndromes will greatly affect energy usage and mental state. I think ones body will chose the best metabolism for diving well enough on its own but being healthy is entirely up to us.
 

xristos

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2013
129
33
68
24
Greece
Training muscles is very straight forward but is only a small part of the equation, metabolic efficiency is essential when conservation of O2 is the goal. Most of this is achieved by a healthy diet, metabolic syndromes will greatly affect energy usage and mental state. I think ones body will chose the best metabolism for diving well enough on its own but being healthy is entirely up to us.
This link is just an advertisement making bold claims and stating well known facts without any actual study nor analysis for the former. Or I am missing something?

We as freedivers want to limit lipolysis to the minimum because its terribly o2 inefficient.

Ones body will choose the correct adaptations if you practice the activity a lot. If the target activity is competition freediving ( one dive ) there is an oxymoron in using this method as I see it... Doing tons of shorter dynamics can help in some parts but it isn't good enough on it's own. Depth diving lots also has its' limitations.
 
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7BDiver

Member
Sep 5, 2019
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Sandpoint Idaho
It is a generalized statement based off metabolic syndrome research cited at the bottom of the article. Most research is going to be based off of overweight unhealthy people which is not a stimulating read, but will show how healthy metabolism will be significantly more oxygen and energy efficient. Lypolysis is very efficient for energy production(19x more than glycolysis), this is why aquatic mamals stick to an aerobic dive limit, they just happen to carry a lot more blood with other oxygen storage adaptations.

ST muscle fibers have a little better lactate oxidativecapacity than FT muscle but Iassume a significant amount of lactate goes to the liver. Athletes with more ST muscles have a higher lactate threshold.

With regards to limiting lypolisys having a high VO2 max is not entirely detrimental. Improved atletic fitness comes with a better sensitivity and stronger vasoconstriction response when exposed to colder conditions. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5719941/
For diving purposes it is convenient that sympathetic vasoconstriction is less blunted with lower exertion helping reach anaerobic metabolism. https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00984.2006

Hopefully this is not too far off topic but may be relevant to achieving an anaerobic transition for training or diving.
 

xristos

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2013
129
33
68
24
Greece
It is a generalized statement based off metabolic syndrome research cited at the bottom of the article. Most research is going to be based off of overweight unhealthy people which is not a stimulating read, but will show how healthy metabolism will be significantly more oxygen and energy efficient. Lypolysis is very efficient for energy production(19x more than glycolysis), this is why aquatic mamals stick to an aerobic dive limit, they just happen to carry a lot more blood with other oxygen storage adaptations.

ST muscle fibers have a little better lactate oxidativecapacity than FT muscle but Iassume a significant amount of lactate goes to the liver. Athletes with more ST muscles have a higher lactate threshold.

With regards to limiting lypolisys having a high VO2 max is not entirely detrimental. Improved atletic fitness comes with a better sensitivity and stronger vasoconstriction response when exposed to colder conditions. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5719941/
For diving purposes it is convenient that sympathetic vasoconstriction is less blunted with lower exertion helping reach anaerobic metabolism. https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00984.2006

Hopefully this is not too far off topic but may be relevant to achieving an anaerobic transition for training or diving.
It's too abstract, what is a healthy metabolism? how is it achieved ?
I disagree, lypolysis is not particularly energy efficient. It just runs on a fuel we have lot's of. More importantly ( and that's what I said in my previous post) for us freedivers lypolysis is not O2 efficient it doesn't produce enough ATP / O2.

That is a little more complicated I think, maybe fast glycolytic fiber produces more energy before it reaches that lower lactate threshold also how they convert that lactate could be more important. Yes, slow twitch has higher oxidative capacity of lactate but why is this useful for us ? In my view it's not.

That's an intersting study, it raises question what happens when you compare the vasoconstriction ability of a reasonably fit freediver and an athlete that is in general very fit? Study demonstrates that fitness is one factor to vasoconstriction but not the only.
 

7BDiver

Member
Sep 5, 2019
51
18
23
32
Sandpoint Idaho
A healthy metabolism is very difficult to assess qualitatively. Every individual would need a specific diet tailored for them to achieve the best results. The best tools we have in modern medicine are biomarkers that can be analyzed from blood, urine and other means. Biomarkers give the individual the means to focus on areas that need improvement and track progress. Although an exhaustive read, this research article can provide a good overview of how to assess metabolic health and target problem areas. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6567133/#!po=3.98773

I am not sure how to interpret lypolysis O2 efficiency compared to glycolysis as the resulting lactate will be oxidized exclusively by aerobic metabolism during or upon recovery of a dive. There is not likely much advantage other than the low fatigability and ability to metabolize lactate. My guess is that ST muscles would help keep lactate from spiking too much during vasoconstriction delaying fatigue.
 

Nathan Vinski

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2015
249
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Canada
@xristos, to answer you first questions..

In my opinion it doesn't matter whether or not freediving is (primarily) aerobic or anaerobic, even for training.

The most important thing we need to worry about is generating sport specific fitness.. which is done by training the sport itself, at appropriate intensity levels, with an andaquate volume of training..

For example (very simple) doing 3x 65% of your CWT PB 3x/week for 3 months.. will cause your body,mind,nervous system to adjust to the demands of the sport and work optimally for those demands.

--

Cross training (anything out of the water) always helps but isn't a "difference maker".

There's no "magic" cross training that will drastically change our O2 consumption..

Do general strength training to keep the type 2a and 2b fibres healthy.

Do general endurance training to keep the type 1 fibres healthy (and heart).

Then focus on sport specific training (freediving tailored to the goal of your training cycle) to optimize the fibres for freediving.

Like you said.. cross training (any kind) has more value at the beginning of the cycle.. towards the end and especially during peaking-training, any cross training is essentially useless as it's a counter-stimulus to the extreme-specificity you need during peaking-training..
 
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Reactions: xristos

xristos

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2013
129
33
68
24
Greece
@xristos, to answer you first questions..

In my opinion it doesn't matter whether or not freediving is (primarily) aerobic or anaerobic, even for training.

The most important thing we need to worry about is generating sport specific fitness.. which is done by training the sport itself, at appropriate intensity levels, with an andaquate volume of training..

For example (very simple) doing 3x 65% of your CWT PB 3x/week for 3 months.. will cause your body,mind,nervous system to adjust to the demands of the sport and work optimally for those demands.

--

Cross training (anything out of the water) always helps but isn't a "difference maker".

There's no "magic" cross training that will drastically change our O2 consumption..

Do general strength training to keep the type 2a and 2b fibres healthy.

Do general endurance training to keep the type 1 fibres healthy (and heart).

Then focus on sport specific training (freediving tailored to the goal of your training cycle) to optimize the fibres for freediving.

Like you said.. cross training (any kind) has more value at the beginning of the cycle.. towards the end and especially during peaking-training, any cross training is essentially useless as it's a counter-stimulus to the extreme-specificity you need during peaking-training..
Pool sessions? It is cross training if you do it when your target discipline is depth. Im trying to figure out how to periodize my pool training. Thinking about co2 "tables" underwater and sprints surface (with mini fin and big swimming hands maybe). Sprints should evolve into underwater sprint and add o2 sessions. Around 5 months. How long should each phase be? What do you think of the sessions?
 
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