Muscles relevant in Freediving

[Dr.Freedive]

Hi fellow Freedivers
I would like to know the muscles that are used while freediving.
The best would be a link to a study or just the names in Latin.
Now that I am a physician I can move to Dahab and train seriously.
I would like to know the muscles used in FIM, CWT, CNF. I would like as well an estimation of how much of the power output each muscle is responsible for in each of the dive phases. The reasoning behind the request is that I would like to design with a strengthcoach a workout specifically for the depth disciplines.

Cheers, Bernhard Zogg

 

[kwtony]

You use ALL of them.

 

[mattbigblue]

I beg Your pardon but Your request sounds like utopia :blackeye
Scientists are not 100% aware of proccesess happening with muscles during/after workout..let alone freediving

As Freediving is progressing, I can see that for more and more people, muscles fatigue is more of a problem than actual breath hold

On elite level I think it's deciding factor...Maybe people end up their breathold in sever hypoxia, but that's because they don't have efficient enough muscles to propel them, and they are just wasting oxygen.

I would also like to find answers for questions You mentioned, let me know if You do!

 

[Dr.Freedive]

Thanks Matt
I think we best discuss what training is best for Strength when we meet in Krakow next month. I will do some general preparatory strength training before and then you can give me your opinion what kind of strength training is good.
Cheers Bernhard

 

[Kars]

Hi Bernhard,

I got a question about muscles. Mine seem too efficient in scavenging O2 from my bloodstream, therefore my dives are limited by me not having enough O2 for my brain.

Are there ways to train the muscles to be less good in scavenging O2 from the bloodstream?

I'm already training to reduce bloodflow before and during dynamics, and that seems to work.

Thanks and success with your project.

 

[Dr.Freedive]

Not really I think, aerobic glycolysis is much more efficient. I think it was 36 per molecule of glucose whereas anerobically 4 per molecule or something similar. I think the anerobic threshold is important to train as well as anerobic highly lactic burn that you get when you are swimming your last 50 meters and that Matt refers to muscle failure as limiting factor. Of course when VO2 max(aerobic training) is high VO2 min is probably going to increase as well. Static is quite different from CWT I think in terms of the way your muscles should be trained. I have some papers on this from Erika. I am not sure If I am free to share them with you, will ask here if you pm me though. Cheers Bernhard

 

[Dr.Freedive]

Kars, now that I think of scavenging O2 look into preconditioning that seams to be a possible option.

 

[Kars]

Thanks to my now working moped I can now afford not bicycling, so my VO2 max is now reducing. Next is replacing that endurance training - to work and back - with strength.
Should I do all that strength training on breath-hold? I Think of doing it all on empty breath-hold.

Thank you Bernhard.

One heads up about my abilities, including my good VO2 max. My static (7'), 16x50 (12'34"), and cwt (65) I consider good, my dynamic (DYN150 - DNF111) was weak in comparison. Never have experienced anything close to muscle failure.

 

[Mullins]

I'd consider 150m DYN to be about on par with 65m CWT or perhaps slightly better Kars. Reckon you should be good for more than 65m CWT since there's a mechanical bloodshift element that benefits people with higher working O2 consumption, i.e. those that don't get muscle failure in DYN.

Bernhard, quads are the muscles that take the great majority of the load in CWT and they are the ones that tend to fail. However the other, smaller muscles that don't get noticed so much are probably responsible for maintaining good stroke mechanics. As hip flexors and lower abs / erector spinae get fatigued they don't burn like quads do but the stoke probably (making a bit of an assumption here) suffers nevertheless.

So quads -> hip flexors -> lower core stuff in that order. Ultimately if your quads burn out you've got nothing to swim with, nothing to transfer power to the fin.

 

[Kars]

Thank you Dave, indeed I experience the mechanical bloodshift element, and that really helps. Do you think empty lung strength exercises are a good way to go?
- I need more strength and want to keep VO2 max low.

BTW what happened on your 128m CWT dive? that 125 looked so good and easy, and I was very happy to see you made such a huge improvement, recalling your equalisation struggles. What's your WC story?

 

[Mullins]

It was purely an equalizing thing Kars. I sorted out my technique here in NZ and got it right on the earlier dives in Greece, but it was still very sensitive to both temperature and stress. I get contractions on the way down and this, combined with cold if I'm not wearing a thick enough suit, causes enough tension that I lose air with every equalization. I'm also diving light - in the glide I'm the same as or even slower than all the other 100+ guys and coming up I average 1.5, but I pay for my extra lung volume with extra work in the first 30. On the comp day the temp had dropped ~2 degrees, it was windy and choppy and everybody was wet long before their OT. Battled with it all the way down, nearly had it but a big contraction took me by surprise and I lost the whole lot

 

[Simos]

Thank you Dave, indeed I experience the mechanical bloodshift element, and that really helps. Do you think empty lung strength exercises are a good way to go?
- I need more strength and want to keep VO2 max low.

BTW what happened on your 128m CWT dive? that 125 looked so good and easy, and I was very happy to see you made such a huge improvement, recalling your equalisation struggles. What's your WC story?

Why would you do strength exercises on empty lung Kars? Don't think strength training will affect your VO2 max by that much.

I remember reading an article by a powerlifting world champion that was basically saying that 99% of it is intensity + nutrition + sleep. He was saying that 3 x 1hr workouts a week (excl warm ups) is all that's needed and anything more is a waste of time. Basically all you are doing in the gym is breaking your muscles and providing a stimulus for growth, you don't grow your muscles in the gym, that's done during the rest phase so basically you need to eat really well (calories do matter!) and sleep as much as you can. Will see if I can dig out the article...

So if you want to get stronger, and particularly if like me you are not genetically predispositioned to put on muscle easily and have terrible sleeping habits, I'd focus on max intensity during strength training and religious attention to nutrition and sleep. I don't think you can train at max intensity needed on empty lung so I wouldn't do it personally. It's probably more important to vary your workouts from time to time and keep your body guessing to avoid plateaus.

 

[mattbigblue]

I can second that Kars, strength training doesn't incrase Your Vo2max and there is no point of doing it on empty lungs (strength for me equals with 80-100% of Your max for not more then 5reps)

Dave, how much weights did You use on Your CWT dives? Can You say a bit more about they way You equalise? (how deep last refill, do You try to keep constant pressure with Your cheeks or You equalise from time to time?)

I was cheering for You..125m looked so calm and easy, from what You wrote above, it looks You will make it on VB in future

 

[Kars]

Thank you Dave, it's interesting to learn about you struggle with buoyancy and insulation! How is diving on a normal full and or FRC for you?

Simos, excellent story, very motivational. I do reckon I need to work on getting more sleep, and eating more during the day. Turning in late is simply because I'm not looking forward to the next day.. Maybe I should plan something fun or worthwhile for the next day to lure me into bed?

Thanks Matt! normal air it is, with very few reps. - I too was cheering for Dave, he to me was a very welcome addition to the epic, Guilliaume, Alexey battle for the deepest dive!

 

[Mullins]

1.9kg Mateusz, with a 2mm suit. Peak descent speed was 1.05m/s. Nothing too special about the way I equalise, I just needed to fine tune a bit. Found I needed to fill earlier, at about 30m but really push it from my stomach - I get cramp in my lower back and sides when I do it properly. I was also exaggerating a couple of movements when equalizing that led to higher overpressure and leaking air back to my lungs. 125m was certainly pretty easy...

Kars, FRC goes ok for me but I don't do it much. In CWT I'm diving with about half packing, so ~1.5l above normal TLC. Full packing is just too much work on the descent and too much stress on the chest.

 

[mattbigblue]

125m was certainly pretty easy...

When I think about cwt I get instantly leg pain image in front of my head. Don't You feel much pain in Your legs? Aren't they getting weak? I don't know, but my dive reflex kicks in so strong, that I feel lactic after ~120m of my DYN and even on the way down in cwt ( I can literally feel like my blood is going away from my legs )... right after turn I feel my legs sooo heavy...
When I look on thoose 110-115m+ performances I always wonder how You train Your legs, cause that's the most impressive thing for me. Is it sprints mostly?

I have similar problem with buoyancy, but I was always diving being max packed, but it seems like more work on the way down and less energy for coming up.

As for equalising, I've found out, that when I try to take big mouthfill like You described, it creates a lot of tension in mouth/throat and usually I loose some air. It requires 100% of relaxation and comfort. I found out that it is much better to take it deeper, but smaller one. I guess everyone has his own way...

 

[Mullins]

Legs do burn, the entire ascent sometimes, but don't lose power until right at the end when I'm getting buoyant anyway. So the graph (these days at least) is a nice straight line the whole way up. I used to get pretty bad fatigue but was diving heavier then too. Before this event I trained differently, lots of fast 150-200m swims with constant kicking and my stiffer CWT mono. I did a stint of weight training last year, lots of squats and deadlifts. I don't think it helped though, in-water training was much better.

 

[Dr.Freedive]

Intersting stuff guys, thanks also to Simos and Mullins for answering part of my initial question. I think that training for freediving is still relatively poorly understood from a physiological point of view and few people can really do scientific work on these topics. So we have to rely on the community answering the questions, which is more fun anyway

 

[mattbigblue]

Thanks Dave,

I think squats and deadlifts are good to some point, but they have to go in pair with some sprint work in water... Funny thing, cause when I recall my last year DYN where I could swim the entire 250m with my legs I was doing excatly the same thing...Squats, deadlifts + 150-175m DYN sprints with constant kicking (as fast as possible).

I'm still impressed with Sessa style guys who can swim entire 250m and more FAST:martial

 

[Simos]

For anyone interested, I found the article:
Powerbuilding: You Don?t Grow In The Gym | NPC News Online

The guy's nickname is 'The White Rhino' so he must be doing something right lol

Although I've heard most of what he says before I found the article an eye-opener - def helped me understand why I never put on a lot of muscle even at periods of my life when I was hitting the gym a lot. Sounds like I would have been better off having a burger and a nap instead of squeezing in an extra gym day and lifting light because I was still tired from the previous session.