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My Method Wrong Or Right

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Erik

Erik

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2001
4,731
753
218
Et Tu

Well said Cliff.
Cheers,
Erik Young
 
Bill

Bill

Baron of Breathold
Oct 17, 2001
1,805
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Some calculations the other day indicate that I've made five to ten thousand dives below six meters without a buddy in sight. Even after 'the course' and watching Bret try for an Oscar, I still believed that I had never blacked out. Oh, a few scary sambas and lots of dives where I saw 'stars' but no black outs. After a summer of diving the 20+ meter range that I seldom dove before, recalling some strange memory lapses over the years, a few very weird statics and some up close observation of others, I feel very, very lucky.

I'll spare you the stories but now I realize that I came to the surface with a gun in my hand and a snorkel in my mouth, exchanged the air in my lungs and took a little nap. This scenario was replayed many times.

Kirk emphasized "safety first" when he taught me. I think we all should do this when we discuss our sport with anyone.

Bill
 
O

Ossi

New Member
Sep 6, 2001
24
3
0
Sorry

I hope I had written one of these later replies instead of mine. I stand corrected when it comes to questions of manners and style. My message didn't come through too well either. If someone has worked hard to collect a body of knowledge in order to make a living, he certainly has some sort of copyright. So publishing a course manual or replicating a course without permission is clearly out of bounds.

But I still am of the opinion that it is everybody's civil responsibility to be concerned of the wellbeing of the next man. And in this particular case it means trying to correct obvious mistakes in freediving safety practices.

ossi
 
Stephan Whelan

Stephan Whelan

Papa Smurf
Staff member
Admin
Jan 7, 1999
6,848
687
268
43
Obligations

Hi everyone,

I've been following this thread and have only now had time to put my word in.

Since I spend a large amount of (personal) money and time each month to keep this site running I find myself jumping up and down with joy when I see the sheer number of people using the site, as well as the quality of discussions. We are truly a unique community here, and i'm proud to stand up and say I helped build it (i'm sure Cliff would say the same thing).

However - I also have a growing concern about the problems associated with people giving out advice. These forums are there for open discussion and we have promoted them as such - however, as Pete (laminar) brought up, the issue is that anyone can read the advice given out here and go and buy some equipment, then drown trying.

This opens up a whole can of worms when it comes to the legality of it. The last thing we need is to be sued by the angry parents of some teenager who drowned in their bathtub.

However (after i've taken some valium to calm me down :D ) I see that up till now there has been no real ability to provide wide reaching, open discussion on the sport unless you lived close to someone who was a "master". I think the need for "masters" such as Eric, Kirk et al. to provide quality advice for beginners for free is growing...People like Cliff (i'll call the "experts" for now) should be there to provide a bridge between the "masters" and the "novices" and give advice to everyone on how to get to a safe, basic level. I hope we can all achieve that.

Probably the best way of approach this from a forum stand-point is to start looking to have more use of "moderators" or "mentors" on the forums, people who have had large amounts of experience in freediving and are willing to provide basic to medium level guidance to freedivers. They would help guide the discussion safely though dangerous advice and as a last resort could use powers to edit or remove posts that are outright dangerous. (A lot of forums provide this sort of service)

Let me hear your thoughts.
 
I

iv3

New Member
Oct 26, 2001
11
0
0
54
free-diving info

Hi fellas,
I recently started freediving a few months back and have used the Deeperblue forums to glean as much info as possible on this sport. However, I have watched the growing squables that seem to manifest with all minority sports which then come of age ie. organisations forming, differing in their regulations, athletes falling out with their erstwhile coaches etc..
Freediving has come of age then...and there appears to be nothing free about it!
I must agree with Ossi, with-holding info is vastly irresponsible for an editor of the site. I live in a small sea-side port in Northern Ireland, and cannot see the a time in the future when I would be able to afford to attend a freediving clinic with Mr. Krack.
I really admire everyone associated with the sport and with this site but it poses the question-if nothing is to be learned from the forum what good is it? Like Ossi, I agree that it is doubtful that professional freedivers would lose income just because a few wrongs were righted on site.
Perhaps some form of paid on-line learning could be set up via Mr. Krack et al, at a reduced rate for those who cannot travel the distances?
In the final analysis, the choice would seem to be either pay for a course with the money you have saved from time not spent in the forum, or simply trial and error again-at least that is still free!

Sorry for being so long-winded guys.
 
T

tuomo

Soon in water
Sep 3, 2001
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37
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Hi

I have to agree with jv3 about the training beeing a privilege for few freedivers. But like me living in finland it would cost me a lot to attend kirks clinic. So my possibility to learn about safety has mainly been this site and i think that i have been able to develope my safety skills after reading posts from these forums.
Ofcourse this leads to people posting having a big responsibily over the safety issues in their posts.
I hope that freediving training could become more standardized and more affordable to anyone. Untill then..
Safe diving.
Tuomo
 
Erik

Erik

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2001
4,731
753
218
Stephan and Cliff, I think that if there was a gate-entry on the site (I'm not sure what they're called) that gave the usual diver and freediver warning about the dangers, that might help in the legality issue. In this sickeningly litigious world, I can understand your fears about that aspect of running a forum! People go to war and kill each other over the right to free choice, but as soon as any opportunity to make a buck over an incident comes up, they're lining up at the solicitor's office. Like the woman who got 2 million $ because McDonald's didn't have "HOT" printed on her coffee cup when it spilt on her!!
Cheers,
Erik Y.
 
J

Jay Styron

New Member
Aug 31, 2001
500
48
0
55
safty/info

After reading all the post for this subject, it became very clear that it's alot like the other thread on "spearfishing good or bad". We are a widely varied group w/ alot of different opinions. Lets not go over the edge in either direction. I don't think that anyone here is giving information that is intentionally ment to hurt someone, and w/ all the posts it seems that safty is still the bottom line. I too would like to attend a freediving class to learn more techniques but without it I don't feel unsafe and I don't feel that the great free divers "owe" it to me to divulge their techniques. If I feel the need then I'll pay the money and take the class. I see videos of Pepin going deep and shooting big fish, I would love to do that. He also shows some of his training techniques on one of his videos. When you by the video, isn't that the same as paying for a class, so whats the problem, you're paying for someone elses knowledge. Lets be honest with each other, these men/women make freediving and setting records their life, so why should they give their techniques for free. People have no problem paying tuition at a university to get a degree so they can go out into their chosen field. The same thing w/ these classes. I guess what I'm trying to say is I think the classes are great but not manditory for safe freediving and I think these open forums are great for the exchange of lots of knowledge. If anyone takes any info from here and uses it w/out comparing it to other sources or posts then thats where ignorance comes in. We have a saying where I work "marine research diving", "You are ultimately responsible for your own safty", thats either by your actions or decisions. Lets quit blameing others. I think this is a great website lets keep it that way. Take it for what its worth.
Jay
 
J

Jay Styron

New Member
Aug 31, 2001
500
48
0
55
safty/info

After reading all the post for this subject, it became very clear that it's alot like the other thread on "spearfishing good or bad". We are a widely varied group w/ alot of different opinions. Lets not go over the edge in either direction. I don't think that anyone here is giving information that is intentionally ment to hurt someone, and w/ all the posts it seems that safty is still the bottom line. I too would like to attend a freediving class to learn more techniques but without it I don't feel unsafe and I don't feel that the great free divers "owe" it to me to divulge their techniques. If I feel the need then I'll pay the money and take the class. I see videos of Pepin going deep and shooting big fish, I would love to do that. He also shows some of his training techniques on one of his videos. When you by the video, isn't that the same as paying for a class, so whats the problem, you're paying for someone elses knowledge. Lets be honest with each other, these men/women make freediving and setting records their life, so why should they give their techniques for free. People have no problem paying tuition at a university to get a degree so they can go out into their chosen field. The same thing w/ these classes. I guess what I'm trying to say is I think the classes are great but not manditory for safe freediving and I think these open forums are great for the exchange of lots of knowledge. If anyone takes any info from here and uses it w/out comparing it to other sources or posts then thats where ignorance comes in. We have a saying where I work "marine research diving", "You are ultimately responsible for your own safty", thats either by your actions or decisions. Lets quit blameing others. I think this is a great website lets keep it that way. Take it for what its worth.
Jay
 
Stephan Whelan

Stephan Whelan

Papa Smurf
Staff member
Admin
Jan 7, 1999
6,848
687
268
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Erik,

Your right - we should have some sort of disclaimer on the forums. I'll look into it.

iv3,

I do see your point and I hope you see and feel that Deeper Blue (esp. these forums) have helped provide information to the masses.

However, the "masters" have gotten to where they are by working hard and developing techniques...most types of sport require some sort of training and people who provide these services often charge for them. I do advocate that a certain basic level of information should be available in the public domain, and more advanced information be reasonably available (either through books or articles) - however the "masters" still need to make a living and should charge for everything from basic to advanced courses.

Of course, I do have to say at this point that Deeper Blue has been and still will be committed to providing quality advice through it's main articles and the forums are likely to keep on being frequented by experts who will dispense advice - we are committed to providing the unique experience of these forums for a long time to come!
 
andrsn

andrsn

Just visiting...
Aug 26, 2001
1,213
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guys! come on now. let's get real. there is info out there on safety and advanced methods already. like jay said, some of it's in Pipin's videos. i know there are dozens of periodicals out there. here's a book from my hero, and it's been out there for quite a while.

so you don't have the $ and means to attend kirk's class. he's not the only expert out there!? you're on this website, so obviously you have net capabilities. go to a search engine and do your homework! if you can't find stuff, use this forum as a TOOL to ask for help. you can see how some of the people here have dedicated thousands of hours to improving their skills. i respect the hell out of these guys. they've gotten to that level because they've worked at it. and then, to have someone like eric f., pete, and eric y. (sorry if i left anyone out) come on the forum and interact with all of us is incredible. you can't pay to get this kind of attention! i think we're taking this whole thing for granted. i don't know of any other site out there that comes any where near in comparison to deeper blue!

and about this issue, i still don't think someone just getting into the sport could be ready to handle complications on a 30m dive no matter how many safety precautions and advice they're given. i think most will agree with this.... i think our mother ocean humbles us for a reason. knowledge alone doesn't make us better freedivers. but knowledge mixed with practice, time, and dedication can.


again, mi dos pesos,
anderson
 
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Erik

Erik

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2001
4,731
753
218
Humbled

Well said Anderson.
One of the things I really like about this forum is the general respect and sensitivity most users seem to have for each other. If you look on some other forums and lists that are out there, there is a ton of flaming, which in turn attracts more morons to their forums.
I am happy to be in such good company as you and the rest of the subscribers on the Freediving forums. Maybe it's something to do with who is attracted to freediving....a quiet and unintrusive pastime that demands respect of our surroundings and ourselves.
I appreciate being put on a list with Pete S. and Eric F., but remember that we all can learn from everyone else. Sometimes the questions of a greenhorn make us look at things differently, and improve our own awareness.
Salud mis amigos,
Erik Y.
 
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K

Kirk Krack

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2001
59
28
108
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Hey Everyone,

I haven't read thoroughly all the emails in this thread, but I can give a response to some points and hopefully clear some things up about what my thoughts are.

First off I've never thought of myself of "being in greatness" as I'm just a freediver like everyone else on this forum who is constantly learning. I've always been amazed when I look at each clinic we teach at how much the next one changes for the better. Every clinic we learn as much off the people we work with as they learn off us and to them we're greatful.

I do however have concerns about forums like these for a number of reasons. I grew up as a life-guard and swimming instructor later on moving into reacreational and technical scuba diving where I taught and teach instructor level programs in tirimix, rebreathers, gas blending, etc. In each of these the first and most important aspect was first safety through skill development. Meaning that we learn what can affect our safety and then work on developmental skills to minimize those risks. In scuba fortunately you have to be certified to obtain the equipment, airfill or resources before you can plunder into the water. Mearning that you have to become aware of the risks and hazards, train to avoid them and then can work on bettering your performance or capabilities.

Fortunately (or unfortunately) we don't have that in freediving. I have strong hesitations to regulating this sport/recreation whereas it's compulsory to take a course/clinic before you can go and have fun. It would be nearly impossible to police and shouldn't be that way. I would hope that people would seek out the proper skills and most importantly realize the RISKS and HAZARDS of the sport we practice before trying push their performances be time, depth, distance or comfort.

My concerns with lists like these are that anyone can read what information looks the best to them at the time and practice what they read without having any real knowledge of the risks and dangers of what they are about to embark upon. Imagine the scuba diving enthusiast who isn't trained, reads about diving deep on air and can purchase the equipment, obtain the airfill and go and dive like they read to 150fsw on air without first knowing the most important rule of scuba diving, "always breath and never hold your breath". We could imagine the results of this action and how it would affect us all.

I don't try and stop the dissimination of information because I think it would lessen my clinics and it's all about $$. For those who believe that, you don't really know me then. I do however like to know who I am talking to and giving what I believe can be potentially harmful information if the most important information addressing risks and hazards and the skills that adderss them aren't covered. I don't ever want to be the cause of a fataility because someone who had a mild interest in freediving, has no partner to freedive with saw "packing" or "purging" or "negative pressure dives" as topics and decided to try these skills without the nesseccary safety net in place.

At a minimum I would recommend that anyone deserving to access this site have to read and initial very POINT BLANK statements of the hazards/risks/etc of what they are about to read. Let the information flow, but let's be responsible about it. What we talk about may be correct or incorrect, safe or unsafe, proper or unproper depending on the time and where we are in our learning.

My heart had chills run through it after reading a thread from a 14 year old kid (14 I think) who was asking questions about hyperventilating I believe, stating that he was new to the list. Did we once think whether this person was practicing proper buddy system procedures or did we just answer the question?

Only my thoughts and I ask all that we think about these forums and how to keep their viability alive, before some lawyer and/or insurance company see the potential liability.

Sincerely,

Kirk Krack
 
Cliff Etzel

Cliff Etzel

PFI Freedive Instructor in training, Photographer
Jul 7, 2000
549
34
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Thanks Kirk!

Thanks for taking the time to clarify your position since I couldn't very well speak for you.

I want to publically express my thanks for having opened my eyes to the fuller spectrum of what freediving is all about, and like you said - you aren't all knowing, but your expertise so far has helped me and I know the others who have attended to become safer and more thoughtful in the process of freediving and at the same time, allowing us to enjoy it more because of that.

Thanks for a great clinic and hope to see you again on the forums!
 
T

thin_air

Alphabet
Sep 15, 2001
404
27
118
kirk is right

14 year old kid...hmmm

thats where i was a year ago (meaning im 15 now, incase some people can add)

and now through this forum i have leared about swb and about all these other thing i should know about but would never have learned about if i hadnt found this site

ya i guess i would maybe still be around and not have had an accident and i guess that maybe i would be a dead fool and just another statistic.

but somehow if a thread isnt started because of saftey it eventually becomes saftey related in the end

i believe that freedivers are very safety oriented and i also think that every one on this forum has read atleast one thread relating to safety

well c ya later
 
Erik

Erik

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2001
4,731
753
218
Legalities

Hey all, I did actually post on another thread today that it would probably be a good idea for Stephan and Cliff to have a "gate-keeper) opening page upon first opening this site, for legal reasons. A page that would have a warning about the risks of freediving, etc, just like any dive course you would take. I know they don't count for much in the States, but they would hold some ground in the UK, where the law is not run by lawyers.
You know, like the pages on the Adult sites...so I've heard.
Cheers,
Erik
 
Erik

Erik

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2001
4,731
753
218
Hi Kirk, I don't think anyone was referring to you as to your motivations being about money. But Cliff used money and stealing ideas as grounds for not posting techniques. I understand that, but information is hard to hold onto, especially in this age. I think we have to be realistic and face the fact that the info is going to be shared, no matter what anyone thinks. So if that is going to happen, then we might as well make the best of it, share everything we know, and try to watch over and guide each other safely. That young guy asked lots of good questions right away, and was promptly answered by a lot of concerned subscribers. What would happen if he saw "The Big Blue" and just decided to go freediving? Maybe he would have had a bad experience, but probably he would have experienced what me and thousands of others did; jumped in the water, managed about a 20 second dive to 3 metres, and returned safely to the surface. Thank God for Deeperblue, where I learned about limitations as well as goals. I also learned that there was a guy called Kirk Krack who trained the best divers in the world, and managed to get into one of his courses;).
Anyone who has taken your course knows that your priority is safety, and that you freedive and teach because you are a freediver, and you care about people.
I will continue to promote your clinics, and look forward to the advanced course someday.
Cheers,
Erik Y.
 
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Stephan Whelan

Stephan Whelan

Papa Smurf
Staff member
Admin
Jan 7, 1999
6,848
687
268
43
Kirk

Kirk,

Thanks for returning to the forums - you are regarded very highly on these, and other, forums/guestbooks on the internet. I do hope to see you return to help dispense advice and (hopefully) have some fun on the non-serious topics.

On the subject of these forums, as I said in a previous post - I have had a growing concern about how to deal with liability - especially as I am the Managing Director of the company and it is my responsability in the eyes of the law <gulp>.

I am loathed to close these forums off to only registered users, but will be moving swiftly to add strong cautionary disclaimers to be displayed in prominent positions. I shall also be moving to include more details in the FAQ and user registration areas.

That should cover liability but on a wider scale there still needs to be a look at how to guide discussions in the right direction. I spoke at length with Cliff about this and we both seem to agree that some sort of "mentor" or "guide" position should be created on the forums with the responsability to help guide the conversations and threads, and at a last resort modify or delete obviously dangerous posts. This has to be implemented carefully as it could be open to abuse and the "mentors" would need to be vetted carefully, however it would add some checks and balances into the forums that should help them grow and provide expert guidance to everyone from basic beginners to advanced freedivers.

The final thought is to have a private (membership only) forum that people can only access after they have proved a certain level of expertise (either by attending a training course or by invitation by one of the forum moderators) and would be available to discuss advanced techniques on freediving.

All are viable options, and i'm sure each of them will annoy some people, but let's here everyone's thoughts...
 
Pekka

Pekka

neoprene dreamer
Aug 22, 2001
790
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Safety or danger

As how did this forum change my thinking on freediveing? I did dive long before and had done some diveing to aproximately -15m or so not knowing a thing about freediveing or anything that is very essential to this sport.
I found this site and got seriously into freediveing, not only getting better equipment but getting to know the hazards of this beatiful sport.
I am thankful for all of you who posted and answered those questions like "does swb really exist?" and "longer Bottom time" and many others that give often the knowledge but have usually geat amount of safety concerns also
:) thanks
 
T

tuomo

Soon in water
Sep 3, 2001
234
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My thoughts..

will bring forth my fears and doupts on making this forum private.
Here is how i feel.
Now this forum has became very much used and very good information has been shared and is beeing shared here. The quality of posts have been extremelly high and very sheldom there has been rude or somehow not misdirecting posts. And whenever someone has misunderstood something especially something about safety issues in freediving he/she has been corrected very quickly, and the greatest thing here is that guiding has been very polite and caring No-one here wants to have any diving accidents.
Above all we have susch great people how know a lot and share their information to us not so experienced once, and without humiliating as.. ;)
The problem i see about making this forum only for gurus, is that the information is there and it is going to be shared no matter how the sharing is regulated ,and the whole idea of this forum is openness. I can just come here and ask my stooped question and be answered, and very quickly too. Closing some people out from discussion would not be very healthy for the general athmosphere among freedivers, i would feel bad if i was left out. There shouldnt be ' an inner circle' for people who are somehow better than the rest of us.

And i have to thank you all for such a great forum. Especially guys like eric, andrsn, pete..., who have contibuted a lot to this community.

Safe diving.

Tuomo
 
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