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Need help, am I using frenzel or valsalva?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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C0nsiderthe0dds

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Apr 11, 2015
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So I always thought I was using valsalva while scuba diving. I'm just getting into freediving now, so this is all the experience I have. I just recently started learning more about the other techniques. When I'm down I pinch my nose, and my tongue closes off my airway and moves up and down and sort of pumps air itself, all with what residual air is in my mouth. I don't have to open my throat to do this. Is that the frenzel? If so I'm on the right track. I also have this thing where in my head I can move this muscle and make my ears sound like there is wind blowing through my head. If I squeeze it hard enough my wife hears a slight clicking noise coming from my ear. Is it possible to equalize without using frenzel, valsalva, and not pinching my nose by doing this? I haven't tried it while in the water, but it seems like the same feeling and sound as when I pinch my nose and make those quick bursts to equalize. Am I getting really lucky here, or is it a fluke and just a noise?
 
You are getting lucky and are well on the way to hands free equalizing. Your course instructor will elaborate.

To test your frenzel, close off your nose with your fingers and equalize. If you are doing frenzel, your nostrils above your fingers will inflate strongly and it doesn't take much pressure. If it doesn't, or if its only a little when you equalize hard, thats probably valsalva.

The "wind blowing" sound means your eustachian valves are open. Learn to control it and hands free is all yours.
 
That's great news the . Seems like I've been doing frenzel already which is a relief, because I thought I'd never get it?! And I can control that wind blowing sound. I can seem to pump it hard, or just hold it for as long as I want without stopping.
 
You are getting lucky and are well on the way to hands free equalizing. Your course instructor will elaborate.

To test your frenzel, close off your nose with your fingers and equalize. If you are doing frenzel, your nostrils above your fingers will inflate strongly and it doesn't take much pressure. If it doesn't, or if its only a little when you equalize hard, thats probably valsalva.

The "wind blowing" sound means your eustachian valves are open. Learn to control it and hands free is all yours.

I can open the tubes without pinching the nose too. I can hear the click in my head when I do it. What it the next step? I can do it on land but not when I'm diving.
How can I train to use it to equalize hands free?
 
That's a great question. I haven't tried that underwater yet as I wasn't even sure that's what that was. Hopefully I can find some water soon and try different things.
 
By the sounds of it your are doing Frenzel which is a good thing if you are doing it naturally as I've seen some guys struggle to unlearn Valsalva in favour of Frenzel.

There's quite a bit written on hands free / BTV (Beance Tubaire Volontaire) / VTO (Voluntary Tubal Opening) equalisation here on DB. A quick search should bring up a wealth of information.

From my personal experience being able to equalise hands free on land is very different to hands free under water. It is however a good starting point as it will give you a "feeling" of where your Eustachian tube is. For me this was the first step to actively targeting and training the muscles around it.
 
From my personal experience being able to equalise hands free on land is very different to hands free under water. It is however a good starting point as it will give you a "feeling" of where your Eustachian tube is. For me this was the first step to actively targeting and training the muscles around it.

I've read those posts, but could not find the exact steps (if there are any) to accomplish this in water. Can you please explain the difference?
 
I've read those posts, but could not find the exact steps (if there are any) to accomplish this in water. Can you please explain the difference?

I think hands free is most probably the most difficult method of equalisation to teach or relay as each person experiences it a bit differently and as it all happens in your head there are no external physical cues to focus on.

I'm by no means an expert and not particularly good at BTV, but I'll try my best and describe the differences between above and underwater as I experience them and tried to figure it out for myself...

When driving over a mountain or when taking off in a plane all I have to do is swallow to in order to equalise the pressure differential.

When sitting still in front of my pc it's bit more difficult, I use a combination of kind of moving my ears and lightly moving my inner throat area. To expand on this: Although it feels as if I'm moving my ears when I do this, while looking in a mirror, they do not move at all - and just for clarity sake, when not attempting to equalise I'm able to move my ears so that its externally visible. Also, when referring to my inner throat, although it feels as if I'm targeting the pharynx and larynx there is no movement there either, so I think this feeling is actually when I target the the two eustachian tube muscles (Levator Veli Palatini Muscle (LVPM) and Tensor Veli Palatini Muscle (TVPM)) which controls the opening and closing of the tube.

When diving, its even more difficult. The action of moving my ears and throat area feels quite a bit more exaggerated. Also compared to Frenzel where I only have to equalise once every 2m or so, with BTV I have to constantly focus on keeping my ears equalised as much as twice or even three times for every meter I descend.

The way I tried to rationalise this to myself, and I may be technically completely off the mark, is on a plane the there is a negative pressure and for me this is easier to overcome, hence a simple swallow will pop my ears.

When sitting in front of the pc practising BTV, there is no pressure differential. So the action becomes more focused and specific in order to achieve the sound of air in my eustachian tube.

Under water there is a positive pressure with a higher pressure gradient. For me this is more difficult to overcome hence the extra effort required to equalise. Underwater there are also al lot of other variables that in my case wreak havoc with focusing exclusively on equalisation, so I tend to be pretty lax when training BTV.
 
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Thanks. I'll try to do what you do. I've one more question: does your adam apple (your throat) move up or down when you equalize in the water?
 
Hey, wow, I'm discovering the same about BTV: I seem to be able to "open" my Eustachian tubes (a bit?) just like that: I can hear "wind blowing through them" as well...

ConsidertheOdds, about Frenzel: it looks like you are doing it. If you can say yes to all of the questions that follow, it's really highly probable you are doing Frenzel:

When you equalize:

-) does your adam's apple move up and down?
-) is your stomach NOT moving? (and so you don't feel any tension in your stomach/belly? You do feel this with Valsalva, but not with Frenzel)
-) can you equalize a LOT of times in just a few seconds easily?
-) can you equalize with empty lungs?

Try and do all four things together:
If you can equalize a lot of times in just a few seconds with empty lungs and you see (in the mirror) your adam's apple moving up and down without feeling any muscle tension in your stomach, you are probably doing Frenzel.
 
Yeah, I'm 100% doing the frenzel! Which is a huge relief. I've heard that you need it to be a better diver. So it's a start, now hopefully I can get some pool time and start working on BTV.
 
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Well, Frenzel is preferred in freediving as it uses less oxygen than Valsalva. (less muscles involved, like your diaphragm and intercostals etc.).
Also, (I have only gone to -12m as I'm a complete - and lousy - beginner), Frenzel (combined with mouthfill) is the only way to go deeper than 30-40m: at that depth, Valsalva doesn't work anymore...
 
For me (and I believe in general) the best way to use handsfree/BTV is when doing it continously. Just blow up the cheeks and open the tubes doing one long equalization...

Perhaps some people use it to assist frentzel wich is good.

Perhaps some use it several times per second, but that sounds tiring or difficult to me, raising the chance of missing an equalization, making it harder to open the tubes and irritating the tubes...
 
In my humble opinion the easiest way to tell if it's Frenzel is if you can do it with your mouth open. As for BTV I find thrusting the jaw forward and down helps, but it seems to become more difficult underwater. I suspect it is the water pressure on the throat and face that is flattening the Eustachian tubes, but as stated above everyone has their own technique as it is all internal.
 
Yes, that's another parameter to check for Frenzel: if you can do it with your mouth open. Forgot about that one. Thanks!
 
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