Negatively buoyant legs in DNF :-P

[Veronika]

Hi there,

I started experimenting a little bit with DNF and came a cross a quite annoying problem: My legs sink :duh . I can't float horizontally but my feet scratch along the bottom of the pool after a while. Particularly nice in pools with tiles :hmm .

Did any of you have the same problems ? How did you solve it ?
I thought about waring high waist pants but that wasn't successful. I also do not want to add any neoprene above the balance point, so using a full suit is not an option.

:waterwork

Veronika

 

[naiad]

Is this without a suit, and how much weight?

 

[subaquaticus]

This subject has been abundantly treated on DB....

Use the search function with the word : "neckweight"...

I invented a system using ankle weights tied togethet and put around your neck... Now I wear 3 pairs of them...

You can also do like Peter Pedersen : he uses pants in order to take his legs up...

See there :

http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=63484&highlight=ankle+weight

http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=60516&highlight=neckweight+constant

 

[jome]

I have the same problem without a suit and even with a thin (1.5mm) suit. I really haven't come up with any universally good solution, except swimming faster before the legs start to fall

If you use just wetsuit pants, you'll want to wear a belt, for reasons that will become obvious as soon as you try it. Maybe one of those triathlon suits (or something like that), that is basically open in the upper body (no sleeves) would work?

But in the end, I really can't think of a solution that does not involve a wetsuit...Unless you're willing to gain some fat on your legs

 

[subaquaticus]

If you use just wetsuit pants, you'll want to wear a belt, for reasons that will become obvious as soon as you try it.

Why ? Just ask Peter Pedersen... or look at a picture of him...

 

[Veronika]

Naiad,
it's without wetsuit, using a 1.5kg neckweight. This neckweight is not heavy enough, though and I will have to upgrade to approx. 2.5kg .

Simo,
swimming faster that's what I do so far but I find it extremely uncomfortable. I already tried out my 5mm high waist pant in DYN but abandoned that quite quickly :rcard . So didn't try it for DNF.
Well gaining fat on the legs is an option, but I guess the gain in buoyancy wouldn't outweight the loss in "streamlining" rofl ...
What a teammate of mine and I thought about was getting some sort of neoprene cuff just for the calfs. I don't know how good anything like that would stay on, though. Duck Tape rofl ?

Francois,
unfortunately positive buoyancy is not an issue in my case, so ankleweights etc. would only make things worse

 

[naiad]

If you are already using a neckweight, the neoprene cuffs sound like a good idea. They should stay on if they are the right size. It should be possible to make or order them.

 

[jome]

I've noticed that the problem seems to be worse some days than others (or then it's just my imagination). But perhaps things like hydration affect to byouancy of your legs? Can't imagine the effect being that dramatic though.

Maybe some neoprene cuffs would work, but I quess they could be almost considered fins, since in a proper breast stroke kick, I guess the most propulsion comes from the shins etc, not the foot. Then again, of course a wetsuit has the same effect.

5mm wetsuit pants would be too thick and constricting to do a proper kick and they float too much. It is of course different with a monofin, because the legs don't have to move sideways, the speed is faster etc. Lot's of people use 3mm or thinner suits...But at least the guy I know is complaining that even 3mm is too thick.

 

[island_sands]

Hi there,

I started experimenting a little bit with DNF and came a cross a quite annoying problem: My legs sink :duh . I can't float horizontally but my feet scratch along the bottom of the pool after a while. Particularly nice in pools with tiles :hmm .

Did any of you have the same problems ? How did you solve it ?
I thought about waring high waist pants but that wasn't successful. I also do not want to add any neoprene above the balance point, so using a full suit is not an option.

:waterwork

Veronika

do you have muscular legs? i find that the more fit i became and less body fat my legs sink as well.

 

[Veronika]

No unfortunately my legs are not too muscular *g*. I wondered myself why on earh they might sink :hmm .

Just like Simo I also noticed slight changes in buoyancy.
I will give the neoprene cuffs a try tomorrow respectively wrap some of my neoprene samples from Elios around my calfs . I will see how it works. If it turns out to be a good idea I will ask @ AIDA (Bill ? Claude Chapuis ??) if anything like that would be allowed. It would be unlogical to forbid it and allow the use of suits at the same time - IMHO.

 

[immerlustig]

hi veronika,

maybe try dyn in saltwater. there are a few neat locations i know of. i could offer some suggestions if you need.

also, maybe you try the heavier neckweight first. better and more streamlined bodyposition made a difference to me, at least.

cheers,

roland

 

[Bill]

'If it turns out to be a good idea I will ask @ AIDA (Bill ? Claude Chapuis ??) if anything like that would be allowed.'

A pair of half booties would probably do the trick. Just tell them that your toes are cold.
Aloha
Bill

 

[Walrus]

Hi Veronika,
I also have a similar problem, slighty sinking legs, I do my DNF with no wetsuit. The speedo fastkin suits will add a little bit of bouyancy, particulary when you first get in the water, it traps some air bubbles. Also does help a bit with your gliding so should give you an extra couple of m in a competition. I use just the pants, the neck high no sleeves suit would probably be your best option.

If it's not enough you could then add a 'tube' of neoprene just over the calf section, just cut of part of the legs of another suit, then wear it underneath the fastskin suit.

Drawback is the suits aren't really designed to be used for regular training(not that durable), so only use it for comps and ocasionally in training. Or buy 2 and keep one for training only. Checkout Ebay can usually get them for less then half retail price.

Cheers,
Wal

 

[Walrus]

P.S. Keep in mind that for DNF it's impossible to have perfect bouyancy. There are 2 differenent positions, arms out front, and arms at side, each changes the bouyancy. For most people the arms are negatively bouyant. Also just doing the stroke movent may change your body angle/ position.

With Bouyancy as good as you can get it most people will still look like they have 'floaty legs' after the leg kick and arms out front, then 'sinky legs' after the arm stroke and glide. It's much more apparent with someone with a long glide. This change in bouyancy will likely be less if you got a wetsuit and weight configuration right.

 

[Veronika]

Well, tried it out yesterday - a few neorene leftovers wrapped around the ankles, fixed with tape. It worked better than I would have thought. Having the stuff stay on was not a problem, and with proper cuffs in the right size that should be a non-issue. Regarding buoyancy issues, this seems to be a good solution. Further tests with proper neckweight yet to follow ...

Does anybody know who is the right person at AIDA to talk to regarding this stuff ?

Socks would be a good idea, too. But I think they don't solve the permission problem. They could be considered to be just the same as gloves, which are forbidden as far as I know (?).

 

[jome]

Bill Stömberg, who hangs in these formus as well as "billextreme", would propbaly have the authority to answer this regarding the rules.

But basically, if it's not forbidden, then it is allowed (which does not mean it will not be forbidden soon if everybody starts doing it)

 

[Veronika]

Yes that's true. The thing is that I think I remember that there is a part of the regulations that forbids any propulsion device in DNF. Can't find it right now. 5.1. just talkes about "no fins of any kind" being allowed in DNF. Yet, I'm sure that paddles are forbidden, too, and Herberd was forbidden to use his DIY-"merman-pants". Wonder how "fins" are defined ?
The neoprene cuffs definitely aren't fins. But if they are considered an aid for propulsion... I'd find that pretty strange bearing in mind that suits are allowed but who knows ? I don't want to find out at a competition :hmm .
Gonna drop Bill a line as soon as I find the time to (quite busy @ the moment).

 

[jome]

Merman-pants?

And all this time I've been trying to explain to the locals that no, smoothskin wetsuits are not a fetish, they are very useful. Now with "merman-pants", I could walk into any fetish party any day Or then my imagination is just running too wild.

You wouldn't happen to have a picture? Inventive guy that Herbert...Always cooking up something...And what we've seen is just the stuff that worked, I can imagine countless of crazy prototypes and failed concepts lying around...

 

[Veronika]

with "merman-pants", I could walk into any fetish party

no actually you couldn't rofl . (Sorry but that was waaaay to nice to be ignored *g*)
Sorry I don't have a pic. I just know that he made one and wanted to use it in Eindhoven (as far as I remember) but wasn't allowed to. Haven't even seen it myself.

Regarding the neoprene cuff matter, Bill said it would be ok (as long as they don't have some wings or likewise on them).

 

[ggarrett]

Another thought to add buoyancy to the legs: neoprene knee supports which are sold in most pharmacies and discount stores these days. They're about a ten inches long of 5 mm neoprene that covers the knees and adds support.

In peace