New freediver (recreational) - Course or no course?

[Explore]

Hey guys,

First of all, awesome forum! I've spend many hours here now that might have been put into studying, yay not a waste of time!

After browsing through the topics here I feel I still need to ask some questions, sorry in advance if the answers are posted in other topics!

This weekend I joined some friends on a Scuba diving trip, they we're taking their Open Water certificates. I did freediving as an activity when I was young (maybe 10 to 12 or something?) and have always been comfortable in the water as i have no problems clearing masks, equalizing, basic safety training (not hyperventilating before dives and the like) etc. Never tried to push any limits though and deepest I've been before this is maybe 4m? I tagged a long when they did their Scuba diving thinking i could hang around as long they stayed in shallow waters. I ended up going to 10 meters the first day and 16m the other day, both feeling comfortable and with time to spare on the bottom. I know the basic principles of relaxing before dives and to try to conserve oxygen.

On some of the dives I got what I think is identified as diaphragm contractions (felt like the lung was trying to breath and made some noises in my chest)? Didn't think much of it and I ascended shortly after without issues.

From what I can tell, the only thing i might have done wrong was to go down without a freediving buddy (I was hanging around scuba divers the whole time but they weren't really there to look after me so I hardly think it counts). Would you consider what I did dangerous? From what I can gather, the biggest risk would have been shallow water blackout (spending too much oxygen at 10+ meters and blacking out when air expands on ascent). I don't have any conception of how dangerous it is to go below 10m if you're unexperienced or how long I would be able to stay before completely running out of oxygen.

I still consider this recreational skindiving/freediving/snorkeling since I haven't been training to push my CO2 tolerance or had any breathing training what so ever. I just try to relax and take three deep breaths before going down. If I want to keep this up (as it was freaking awesome!) do you think I need to take courses and find freediving buddies etc. (eg. get serious!)? I feel that I need to work on my breathing/relaxation and hydrodynamics to improve, something I could practise on my own... Thoughts?

Sry for wall of text!

 

[apneaboy]

This weekend I joined some friends on a Scuba diving trip, they we're taking their Open Water certificates.

Course.

Get hooked up with buddies, and learn BEFORE you start with bad habits

 

[hteas]

You have 3 options available
1 hang out here and learn from the group
2 find a buddy who has been doing it longer (and hopefully won't teach bad habits)
3 take a class

All three are very valuable.
Many will tell you you must have a buddy. You really don't need one, but it's safer if you do, and they may be able to help you along your way.
If available and you have the funds for it, a class will be very valuable. I had one about a decade ago from Performance Freediving (Kirk Kraak), when Martin Stepanek was still teaching there. Between Martin and Kirk, we all learned a lot about safety and about diving. The safety aspects are probably the most important part of a good class. The knowledge gained will help keep you alive long enough to learn the rest ; )

 

[Kars]

Ok, where to begin?

Why would one like to learn from an experienced freediver in a 1 o 1 or small group situation?

- it will help you improve your freediving experience by huge leaps, in 10 good sessions one could learn a years - or more - worth of knowledge.
- with such a dive buddy you can explore in relative safety your sensation leading up to your limits. Knowing these will greatly help to know your limits better.*
- with a buddy you can learn proper safety techniques, so you know what to do, and what not to do. So you can teach your pool own buddy.
- Freediving people are generally very nice, cool, warm and great characters to meet! (just witness the hours some donate to each other on this forum!)
- it will improve and even transform your freediving experience into unexplored new depths.

Do you find these reasons stirring you enough?

Now I think your -10m dive was dangerous, not for the numbers, but you mentioned some strange sound from you lungs. Have yourself checked.
Also understand that at depth, under influence of high O2 partial pressure, high nitrogen (N2), high CO2, your mental abilities are affected. In general it slows your thinking, it enhances your emotions, and dulls your perceptions. Freediving is very much a mental sport that encourages the individual to challenge, reflect and grow.

So do a call out, contact AIDA Sweden, find your buddy!

Love, Courage and water,

Kars

 

[Explore]

Hey and thank you for your sincere answers guys!

Many will tell you you must have a buddy. You really don't need one, but it's safer if you do, and they may be able to help you along your way.

It seems a bit scary going deeper than 10m without a buddy because of the potential risk of over using oxygen and therefore blacking out on ascent. Was wondering one thing about that though, even though you have a higher density of oxygen in the lungs when your deep it is still the CO2 buildup which causes your reflexto trigger right? I think at least in my case since I haven't done any CO2 tolerance training and I'm VERY careful not to hyperventilate before I go down. I rather just stay down 20 secs than risking overdoing things.

Course!

Because of your advice, I'm currently looking for a trainer which can provide me with AIDA** in Singapore. Getting some first hand tips seems really valueable and that course seems to fit my current (non-existent) level. If anyone knows of any courses in or close to Singapore (Malaysia, Thailand etc.) I would be gladif you could share your knowledge and/or experience!

Now I think your -10m dive was dangerous, not for the numbers, but you mentioned some strange sound from you lungs.

I've been experiencing this before, and I've never had any trouble with it. From what I can gather, I think the sound comes from my throat once the contractions start. I think it's because I dont fully block it with tounge or that other muscle(?). Pressure differences in lungs (from contractions) and mouth causes air to go through a halfclosed throat, hence the sound. (I can make the same sound here) Doesn't seem to be very common so I guess I should either keep my throat open or clamp it shut?

Buddies

Also currently trying to find buddies in my area which will be willing to help a beginner out or a beginner buddy to take courses with!

Again, thank you for your help guys and see you around!

 

[tcrusson]

Many will tell you you must have a buddy. You really don't need one, but it's safer if you do, and they may be able to help you along your way.

I can't believe we're still hearing stuff like that, after so many casualties...
What you should do is:
1. find a buddy
2. don't dive alone, always dive with a buddy
3. never dive alone
4. never ever dive alone
5. When you dive with a buddy, always dive "one up, one down", and keep close watch.

Depth doesn't matter, time underwater doesn't matter, whether you go for fun or for training doesn't matter, whether you can do 10 times the dive you're doing on that day doesn't matter. There's no exception. This year a famous freediving athlete died... in a swimming pool, training alone. We have regular news stories of spearfishermen diving well within their limits, in 10m of water, and dying from a black out, either because they were diving alone, or because their buddies were busy doing their own thing.

If you have a blackout, there are 2 possible outcomes:
- you're alone and you're dead
- you have a buddy and you recover in a few seconds

 

[jay cluskey]

I'm shocked that somebody still thinks you can freedive alone .
Never dive alone !
Do not rely on a forum for education take a course.
If you depended on this forum you will only be as safe as the worst piece of advice you take .
The forum is great for tips and networking but you must learn the fundamental principles of freediving first because not only for your safety but for the safety of others too.
Good luck and dive safe
Jay


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[whiteminiman]

For a course in Malaysia or Thailand - these guys
http://wefreedive.org/

I did my 3* with them last year, and they are BRILLIANT!

Dan

 

[esom]

I'm shocked that somebody still thinks you can freedive alone .

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although just as extreme as it can get, quite in accordance with some other contributors. maybe read again and savour



sometimes the meaning of a word seems to be reversed. if you decide for looking for a teacher and you meet someone who´s freediving concept you don´t agree with, please disagree. no need to be shy, i promise.

 

[esom]

sometimes the meaning of a word seems to be reversed.

some words´meanings are more easily reversed than others. the most delicate ones like "freedom" can be harmed already by being vocalised.

 

[jay cluskey]

some words´meanings are more easily reversed than others. The most delicate ones like "freedom" can be harmed already by being vocalised.

? ???????????

 

[island_sands]

I would do a course with a qualified instructor. I don't believe in "e-learning" for diving courses, you need proper supervision and instruction to learn good habits from the start.

Freediving can be dangerous if practiced alone. You just need to look at the details behind the freediving death statistics a first indication.

 

[jay cluskey]

Well said sands
It's idiotic to think any different after recent sad events
Research is one thing knowledge is another .


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[esom]

? ???????????

well, i feel an answer to your question would get a little long and off topic. not only because of the questions´ open phrasing.

there are two things i understand out of your post:

- don´t think!
- an underwaterswim which is safe to do alone is not a freedive.

i do have a problem with both, but this is not the point here. i feel posts like this (and there are a lot similar ones, which makes its content true because everybody says it) are not promoting responsability. this is of course no problem as long as an experienced coach is with the one who was indoctrinated like this. ...so we have a freediving where there are the ones which "know" (what again? - see the two points above) and the ones which don´t. where is this diving free?

i hope this can be an explanation why i mentioned that freedom as a concept is easily damaged. we as a community which choose to take care of the word "free", have earned a responsability by doing so.

regards

 

[jay cluskey]

We are actually talking about freediving and apnea which is a bit strange for this type of forum
So please do not be offended by my use of the word "free" but the fact that you are on some sort of crusade for free use of the word "free" says more about you than it contributes to this topic.
Sadly people who are either ignorant un trained or just downright too pig headed to take the time to train under supervision die every year and kick the good name of our sport in the teeth.
I wish you well on your fairy tale adventure wherever it takes you but whilst your on it I'll just stay out of the clouds and try to campaign and promote safe diving
Regards


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[Kars]

Well Jay, I think I understand your point. To keep the advice simple, unequivocally for the naive visitor seeking direction.

I also understand Andreas' view, who is more looking long term, and identifying the problems of our 'age of experts', where people are lacking in some basic abilities, rendering them dependent on experts and each other for any decision making.

Is today's person following an expert a truly response able person?​

The the word freedom is married to the word responsibility.
These are connected to the ability to the process of identification, to thinking.
Do we hold a seal responsible for his actions? No, why? well the seal is merely programmed to react to the direction of trainer, by behaviorist methods. The seal is NOT choosing; the Trainer is choosing for the seal.

I think Freediving, just like any helix sport, can be an excellent vehicle to become more aware, more conscious, of our programming and thus find more responsibility and have more freedom.

-

In the mean time I would advocate to newcomers to explore, learn and weigh the risks.
All I can say is that after 8 years of passionate freediving I find myself aware of things that I could not even start to imagine, and I choose out of free will to not go near my limits because of the consequences.
A response able person of heart does not need an expert to tell him the logical conclusion.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[esom]

We are actually talking about freediving and apnea which is a bit strange for this type of forum

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can you explain what you mean, writing "type" and what is strange, i don´t get it.
talking "freediving and apnea" on a forum defines it as freediving forum. what do i get wrong in there?

So please do not be offended by my use of the word "free" but the fact that you are on some sort of crusade for free use of the word "free" says more about you than it contributes to this topic.

no i´m not "shocked" by your post. but concered about the over and over repeated call "don´t freedive...". i just picked your post because it so beautifully reflects the paradox.
about "saying more about about me": i agree so much! - my post though, not your interpretation of it. but please tell me which of your posts contributes more to the topic than it says about you? if you agree with me on this one, any brutal rule will make no sense anymore, will it?

I wish you well on your fairy tale adventure wherever it takes you but whilst your on it I'll just stay out of the clouds and try to campaign and promote safe diving

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so, using your argument - the many fatalities - i´d state: you failed. with your campain and promotion. and i do think my polemic post contains some ideas what is problematical about the campain.
it is no secret that human beings act like this* and there is need for less anger about this and smarter campains- to use your word, ideas i´d say.

thank you and also kars for mentioning the naives - very important subject, to me. next time...



*i´m very happy that it´s not different

 

[jay cluskey]

A campaign started this year
It has not failed it's not my campaign !
I do not want to discus paradoxes etc
It's a dive forum not a hippy commune
Stop quoting me and arguing a point with me it's patronising and infuriating.
I'm not interested in any thing you have to say unless it's totally dive related .
I just want this potential new diver and many like him to train safely and dive safely is that too much for you to comprehend??
Sarcasm is lost on some people so sometimes I have to be blunt !



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[Siku]

Forum debates are fascinating - there's so much scope for misunderstanding and confusion. But don't be confused and don't misunderstand this:

NEVER free dive alone.

I wouldn't even swim in the sea on my own, let alone dive. Besides, it's more fun with friends.

 

[esom]

be sure i did not want to end up like this. i thought being uncloudy (thats how i see it - qouting helps with this goal) and polemic is good input to this diffcult topic and fueling a discussion. a disscussion i see as promising and very much relatet to saftey. kars put it nicely together i think, and i will try to integrate this truth into interaction with people which are seeing me as an expert.

regards