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New Seac Shotgun

Diving Gecko

shooter & shooter
Jun 24, 2008
1,410
334
138
Shanghai
Hmm, does that company, like Mares, have a distaste for vacuum muzzles? They go through some level of effort to design a new gun and then choose to bypass the one proven shortcut to better efficiency? I have to say, part of me feels like they wanted a gun with a different compression ratio but wanted to save the money for designing and making moulds for a new handle or to hydroform a tapered barrel. I guess, they didn't believe the market would appreciate such a gun enough to pay for the above.

That said, it looks interesting and I'll be awaiting Pete and Tomi's views on it.
 
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popgun pete

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2008
3,377
744
153
Australia
Small tank volume, high compression ratio and nose heavy in the water for what is a longer gun than the rest of its dimensions would normally suggest. Seems to be a retrograde step in design and is probably a sinker, in fact unless there is some other offsetting flotation like a sealed handle I am sure the gun does not float after the shot. Think of the Omer "Skorpion", at least it had more volume with a conical nosed tank. The 25 mm diameter reference is to what, the OD of the barrel!?
 
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Gazz

Gazz

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2005
216
26
118
41
Sydney Australia
The heavy nose and small tank volume issues are valid complaints, but if the gun had the balance of say a heavy rail gun with vastly superior tracking then this gun would definitely have a place hunting in the surf and high surge areas.

The 25mm OD would be the sleave over the barrel at the front of the gun, hopefully made from a strong lightweight plastic.

I purchases a little caccia for cave and low viz hunting and love the handle, I also got a hunter 115 to replace my asso and it is a good gun for the price (i will do a review later).
 

popgun pete

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2008
3,377
744
153
Australia
I notice that the "Shotgun" comes in lengths 40, 55.5, 79, 90 and 115 cm, the last three having a power regulator. Hence the longer models may be floaters, but a lot depends on what proportion of the gun length is that 25 mm OD barrel sticking out in front of the 40 mm OD tank at the rear. If it is slightly less than half the gun length in front of the grip handle on all of the above models then they are unlikely to float after the shot due to insufficient water displacement. We don't really have enough information, but could the 25 mm OD "barrel" be a "mini-tank" and the nose cone be an intermediate bulkhead with the true nose cone actually being the muzzle? That arrangement would provide more air volume in a stepped diameter tank, however that would require extra seals where the two tanks meet. If you think of the "Cyrano" it has a long thin snout, but that is the same length on all of the models and only contained air at the ambient pressure where the gun was assembled as the true pressure bulkhead is at the rear of what is a two-part nose cone with an inner (pressurized) and an outer (unpressurized) component. The "Shotgun" may be pressurized for the full length of the gun, which would be different from what has gone before if that is the case.
 

popgun pete

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2008
3,377
744
153
Australia
The "Shotgun" probably makes use of what was in the parts bin without making too many new components as was suggested above by DG. I note the photos on the web-site of the muzzle and the gun from an angled perspective are from the "Caccia HF" photos, the latter probably a mistake as it is not even of the "Shotgun" (as of yesterday when I checked). The second and third photos are of the gun, added here. Note the barrel has the same surface finish as the tank in the top image.
Shotgun 2.jpg
 

Diving Gecko

shooter & shooter
Jun 24, 2008
1,410
334
138
Shanghai
I'm pretty sure the 25mm is the OD of the front tank and the shooting barrel is likely 16mm OD, right? So, that would leave about (25mm - 2x1mm wall thickness - 16mm barrel) 7mm of space internally, so I would think the front is pressurized too.

Yeah, it does seem Seac wanting to add a new gun but to use (mostly) parts they have already. I even thought the cone between the two tanks looked an awful lot like a normal Hunter nose cone which had had the sight and line hook cut off, haha. But I guess, it looks the same to go along with that design as I don't see how they could seal the front outer tank in that cone.

@foxfish, I agree - it would have been nice if they had offset the reservoir, but not doable with the stock handle that they kept.
 

popgun pete

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2008
3,377
744
153
Australia
The Seac-Sub Marketing Department probably wanted a new product release and this was the quickest way to get something up, however we will know more once someone here buys one. It appears to be early days given the minimal info on the gun in terms of the advertising material viewed to date.
 

kwtony

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2011
296
27
68
Key West
Saw that at a recent convention and wasnt too impressed, reminded me of a hybrid speargun. It Maybe a good short range gun.

My understanding of modenr guns not using a standard dry barrel is because of an old patent issue.
 

Diving Gecko

shooter & shooter
Jun 24, 2008
1,410
334
138
Shanghai
Saw that at a recent convention and wasnt too impressed, reminded me of a hybrid speargun. It Maybe a good short range gun.

My understanding of modenr guns not using a standard dry barrel is because of an old patent issue.
Not sure what patents could be in play as all these guns' basic design is decades old by now and has been shared by numerous different manufactures for pretty much as long.
As a side note, I sometimes think about what we would call the fact that eg. an Asso and Sten have extremely similar interiors and dimensions, so much so that many parts are interchangeable, if it was today and one company was say, Chinese, and the other American. To me, it sure looks a lot like the Italians cloned each other to no end. But I am no historian in industrial design;-)

In regards to the vacuum muzzles, allegedly a few years back someone from one of the commercial Italian manufacturers went after another Italian company looking into offering vacuum muzzles saying the latter was breaching patent rights in Italy. The first Italian company supposedly had been granted a patent on the premise that they had more or less had invented it(?) (in the late 2000s). The "new guy" solicited help to dig out more information on the history of the vacuum muzzles. An old Russian patent surfaced showing that the technology had been used or described there about 30 years prior.
The above is as I recall it and based on one source only, so may not be correct but the point is that patents should have run out now unless they are local and then perhaps they can/should be disputed as they were not actually valid in the first place.

That said, obviously I am also very far from being a patent lawyer:)
 
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popgun pete

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2008
3,377
744
153
Australia
Recently these Seac-Sub "Shotgun" spearguns have been offered at very low prices and I think that the model is being run out as it no longer appears in the Seac-Sub 2019 catalog. The "Asso" and "Caccia" remain as their 13 mm and 11.2 mm inner barrel diameter pneumatic guns respectively. The "Shotgun" has the 11.2 mm inner barrel diameter, so in a sense it is a variation on the "Caccia".

I just ordered a "Shotgun 90" as the price was 100 bucks with shipping and so will be taking the opportunity to examine it. From the images it appears to have a tank length equivalent to that of a Mares "Ministen" while the overall gun length is that of a "Sten", hence it will be interesting to see if it floats, but I doubt that it can do so with that long projecting front muzzle section.
Seac-Sub Shotgun.jpg
 
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popgun pete

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2008
3,377
744
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Australia
I received and put the “Shotgun 90” in the bath tub and it floats nearly horizontally with the muzzle only very slightly inclined downwards, so the front section does contain air, although whether at ambient or gun pressure I don’t know. So the concern about it being a sinker can be discarded, at least for the 90 cm version and longer and most likely the 79 cm as well. Short guns such as 40 cm usually don't have enough tank volume to float, however sealed rear handles can make all the difference such as with the original Mares “Miniministen” which was a floater due to the buoyancy of the sealed grip. Similarly the Russian “Taimen” guns have a polyurethane flotation element in their rear handles which makes all their guns floaters, although maybe not the titanium version recently announced.

The "Shotgun" speargun has an open bottom grip which is standard for most Italian rear handle pneumatic guns these days.
 
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popgun pete

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2008
3,377
744
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Australia
Here is where I bought the "Shotgun" and they have other sizes in stock. The prices seem low, but this may be to sell them off.
 
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laz-zero

New Member
May 26, 2019
3
0
1
38
Miami, FL
Here is where I bought the "Shotgun" and they have other sizes in stock. The prices seem low, but this may be to sell them off.
Hello Pete,
I'm new on the forum, but wanted to express my thanks for the info you provided about this speargun. I'm a Miami, Florida local and spearfish off of the Bay are and east of the reef here. I'm currently looking at the Seac Shotgun 115 option on scubastore, but don't really know what to make of the quality/durability of the gun. I was wondering whether you've had insight into in, or whether you've had the chance to shoot it yet?
 

popgun pete

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2008
3,377
744
153
Australia
We are out of the spearfishing season now with grey and cold days, so I will not be shooting the "Shotgun" (or anything else) until September at the earliest. Quality wise the gun looks very good and really it is a makeover of their “Caccia” which is also an 11.2 mm inner barrel ID speargun. The central nose cone is somewhat curvier than shown in the photos, so Seac-Sub made some later changes to the gun. I was really surprised at how well it floated even with that narrow front section. The gun will have a higher compression ratio as a consequence (due to less tank volume), but unless you want to lean on the hand pump to use the highest allowable pressures it should not make much difference. The swing and traverse should be improved, hence in that respect the gun will be advantaged for that type of shooting where fish are quickly moving around in front of you and you have to pick one out. My “Taimen” is good for that as it has a very narrow tank of 28 mm OD, the front section of the “Shotgun” is 25 mm OD.

However when cocked to shoot the gun is going to feel more nose heavy, but that would not be a show stopper. The original Mares "Cyrano" suffered from being nose heavy, but only a relatively short nozzle meant the gains in swinging were not so great and in my opinion were not worth doing. In the "Shotgun" the intent is to make a bigger change and gains in one area are always offset by a loss elsewhere.
 
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laz-zero

New Member
May 26, 2019
3
0
1
38
Miami, FL
We are out of the spearfishing season now with grey and cold days, so I will not be shooting the "Shotgun" (or anything else) until September at the earliest. Quality wise the gun looks very good and really it is a makeover of their “Caccia” which is also an 11.2 mm inner barrel ID speargun. The central nose cone is somewhat curvier than shown in the photos, so Seac-Sub made some later changes to the gun. I was really surprised at how well it floated even with that narrow front section. The gun will have a higher compression ratio as a consequence (due to less tank volume), but unless you want to lean on the hand pump to use the highest allowable pressures it should not make much difference. The swing and traverse should be improved, hence in that respect the gun will be advantaged for that type of shooting where fish are quickly moving around in front of you and you have to pick one out. My “Taimen” is good for that as it has a very narrow tank of 28 mm OD, the front section of the “Shotgun” is 25 mm OD.

However when cocked to shoot the gun is going to feel more nose heavy, but that would not be a show stopper. The original Mares "Cyrano" suffered from being nose heavy, but only a relatively short nozzle meant the gains in swinging were not so great and in my opinion were not worth doing. In the "Shotgun" the intent is to make a bigger change and gains in one area are always offset by a loss elsewhere.
Hello Pete,
Thank you so much for the thorough information and your insight. I read some of your earlier posts, which helped me understand the significance of compression ratio as applicable to spearguns.
If I order the Seac Shotgun, I will be sure to update you.
Thanks once again for all the knowledge you've provided on this post and on others.
Sincerely,
Laz
 

popgun pete

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2008
3,377
744
153
Australia
Here are some photos of the "Shotgun" 90 cm, a Sporasub "Stealth" (nee Mares "Spark") 85 cm and a Mares "Ministen" taken earlier when the weather permitted.
Seac Sub Shotgun AR.jpg
Seac Sub Shotgun BR.jpg
Seac Sub Shotgun cone R.jpg

You can see from the photos that the "Shotgun" loses a big chunk of tank volume and has a main tank only a bit longer than a "Ministen". However for the selling price it seems a good deal and the 115 cm is only AUD 132 before shipping (about USD 91.50). The spring steel stainless shaft is 6.5 mm and has an integral tip, so not ideal for rock hunting and more suited to shooting zippy fish in the water column.
 
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laz-zero

New Member
May 26, 2019
3
0
1
38
Miami, FL
Here are some photos of the "Shotgun" 90 cm, a Sporasub "Stealth" (nee Mares "Spark") 85 cm and a Mares "Ministen" taken earlier when the weather permitted.
View attachment 54119View attachment 54120View attachment 54121
You can see from the photos that the "Shotgun" loses a big chunk of tank volume and has a tank only a bit longer than a "Ministen". However for the selling price it seems a good deal and the 115 cm is only AUD 132 before shipping (about USD 91.50). The spring steel stainless shaft is 6.5 mm and has an integral tip, so not ideal for rock hunting and more suited to shooting zippy fish in the water column.
Thanks Pete, great comparison. I have a better perspective now.
 
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