Newbie: Need Help

[reesemortensen]

Ok, i did read several threads on this forum, but none did really help me yet.

Let me see, I did apnea when i was 6-10 years...it was a hobby, i didnt know really what was the name of that...i simply loved being under the water...so sowly i was being longer and longer under. Ofcourse there was friends and my parents there. In a big swimming pool, went to the sea once, but no more.

So now i am interested in training myself on apnea, i am very busy and i cant go to a class (here in madrid, there are very few, and we dont have sea).

So...how is the DRY STATIC training? What are the tables? I've seen them, but i still cannot understand how this works. I tried putting my polar heartrate, lied down on my bed, and started holding breath. i cant hold for a long, i start to have like small convulsions, which i know is nothing, but...it feels uncomfortable, and my heartrate went down...which i guess its normal. It got like from 70 to 50.In maybe 10-15 seconds.

I dont know how to hold much more than 30-40 seconds. And yes, i know the risks, but...i dont leave myself go way too far.

So, how is all this thing. I would appreciate some explanations. I will go to malaysia, and i would love to already hold 2 min my breath so i can go under that amazing water...free, without BOTTLES.

Thanks a lot

Nora

 

[lungfish]

Hello Nora,
I can get you some quick help to meet your goals. If you simply work on C02/02 tolerance tables twice a week, you will quickly become able to do 2minute submersions. The idea isn't to worry so much about your personal best ability to hold your breath. It is to become very familiar with preparing to hold your breath and the act of doing it, combined with a change in sensitivity to the sensations related to holding your breath. I know that probably sounds wierd, just read it a couple of times.

I suggest that you do some research on google re: Mammalian Diving Reflex - Freedivers learn how to induce this altered state and combine it with apnea training to do our deep swims.

If you start by doing an 02 on day 1 and a C02 table on day three...

Phase 1
02 table
1.ventilate 2:00 static 1:00
2.ventilate 2:00 static 1:15
3.ventilate 2:00 static 1:30
4.ventilate 2:00 static 1:45
5.ventilate 2:00 static 2:00
6.ventilate 2:00 static 2:15
7.ventilate 2:00 static 2:30
8.ventilate 2:00 static 2:30
total duration 30:45

Phase 1 C02 Table
1. ventilate 2:30 static 1:30
2. ventilate 2:15 static 1:30
3. ventilate 2:00 static 1:30
4. ventilate 1:45 static 1:30
5. ventilate 1:30 static 1:30
6. ventilate 1:15 static 1:30
7. ventilate 1:00 static 1:30
8. ventilate 1:00 static 1:30
total duration 25:15

Do the 02 table on Day 1, do the C02 table on Day 3-4 (do one phase a week)

To do these, get a watch and sit down. Breath deeply and slowly for the ventilation duration listed, then hold your breath (static) for the duration suggested. When that is completed, immediately begin ventilating for the next (#2) suggested duration and then static immediately following.... nonstop #1-#8

When you are ready for phase two, just ask....

If this is too agressive begin each exercise 15-30secs shorter, refer to that as Phase 1 in your notes and build up by adding 15 secs to the static part of the 02 ex and 15secs to the ventilation portion of the C02 table.

if all this confuses you, just ask...

If you do these exercises diligently, you will be truly prepared for long submersions. The differences that this practice has made in my diving are incredible.

This will really help you but you need to learn how to "breath up" before diving, and in-between dives.... check out the threads, if you have any questions, ask.

Good luck!

Lungfish

 

[reesemortensen]

Ummm---so....i do breath example 2 min, then hold 1 min (if i understood well??)

I tried to hold my breath after fulling my lungs, the result were pathetic, 30 seconds and started to get some convulsions, those that alerts you need to breath. What do i do?? That stuff is really uncomfortable.

Whats the REAL warning or red flag symptom??? LOL I hope i dont ask too much, thanks a lot for your explanaitions.

Are this made for dry apnea?? And is its static or dynamic??? I guess i would need dynamic, since...i will go around the water. Thanks alot

Nora

 

[reesemortensen]

sorry...and what is breath ups???

What is involved more in freediving???

Ops...sorrryyyy i am truly a newbie LOL

nora

 

[lungfish]

Hi Nora,

Your example is correct. And if you can't finish this first table, then we can start you off with shorter exercises.

You would do these exercises on dry land while sitting in a chair with a watch.

The convulsions you are talking about will decrease in intensity once you have done a couple of phases of C02/02 tables. These ex. are actually called
"Tolerance" tables and they teach you how to cope with the various stages of apnea.

And it does take a little bit of work to get familiar with apnea but you have genetics on your side.... we are made to be able to hold our breaths for a very long time. We simply have to learn how and do it.

Static Apnea means that you aren't moving. Dynamic apnea refers to distance swimming with Apnea. There are different kinds of static apnea drills including the tolerance tables I shared with you. They will make you a better underwater swimmer.

Breathing up is the practice of preparing for a dive using specific patterns of breathing to increase 02, reduce C02 and set the stage for a long apnea. There are some different schools of thought on breathing up. The most basic form, the one you need to learn, is the 02 saturation part. Basically you are trying to increase tissue 02 while decreasing your heart rate so that when you dive your heart rate continues to slow and you use less 02.

The pattern is like this: inhale deeply and quickly for about 3 secs. Hold your breath for about 3secs and then, slowly, exhale for about 12-15secs.

Your heartrate increases on the inhale and decreases on the exhale so you want to keep the inhale deep and short and the exhale long and relaxed. You need to do this for about 2min before an initial dive and for at least twice as long as the previous dive before diving again.

You are going to learn a lot about breathing that you didn't even guess about.... so don't worry. Any healthy person can learn to improve their breath hold and benefit from tolerance tables.

You might want to consider taking a course - it is the quickest way to success, and the safest. I think there are several different opportunities in your area. Additionally I recommend www.performancefreediving.com They have great seminars and offer a solid foundation for freedivers.

There are some good EU freedivers and courses available as well but I just haven't got them handy to share although they do teach courses at www.deeperblue.net in the UK...

Keep practicing and asking questions. Don't worry about being an expert breath-holder.... just concentrate on learning how. In a matter of a couple months, people who know you will think you are superhuman...

Lungfish

 

[reesemortensen]

Thank You very much

1. So these tables, i should only practice each of them once per week right? Whats the deal on only practicing once per week?? I mean, can it be practiced more? (just a question)

2. When is the STOP limit. When i start get convulsions? If yes, that would be at 35 seconds.

3. You said i could decrease example holding the breath from 1 min to 35-40 seconds if i couldnt hold longer. For the next "holding", i see it increases the seconds, how can i increase example 10 seconds if at the first i can barely get to a time?

4. What kind of breathing is the one recommended for dry apnea? I've done pilates and yoga, but i dont know if its the same kind. I did read something about filling the belly.

5. So the breath up, is it before going to the water right? And if i understood well, it must be done the the time of the apnea? I mean, if i will hold 2-3 min my breath, i should do that breath up 2-3 min?

6. Is it possible to increase the capacity to hold breath? I just see it like a whole big world, getting to 1 min , whats the average time? (I've got maybe around 5 months before going to malaysia)

7. Those convulsions, should i hold them? Not listen to them or??

8. Which suits/equipment you would recommend? I've seen mares doing a special one for apnea, and another brand that makes the by your exact measurements. What more is required? The belt? But with how much weight?

9. Yeah, a course would be great, i may take it in malaysia, there are one-to-one trainers. I get stressed with lot of people. When i am alone or with 2-3 persons i am ok

10. Again, thanks a lot , by the way, how did ya get started in freediving? And which speciality you practice?

THANKs, sorry, but those questions maybe silly, But i am a baby in this

Nora

 

[land shark]

http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=64478&highlight=manual+freediving

 

[dannybuoy]

Hi Nora,

The thing that helped me most with holding my breath was the realization that the urge to breath, that slightly panicky feeling you get when holding your breath, is actually the urge to breathe out. In other words, it isn't your body screaming for oxygen, but wanting to purge itself of carbon dioxides. So those convulsions you're talking about -which are called contractions, by the way- are your diaphragm trying to push out air. It feels extreme but it is nothing to worry about, and with practise it becomes less scary. The important thing to know is that when you get contractions, it doesn't mean your breath-hold is done, it just means that the easy phase is over and now you're going to have to do your best to relax. You still have plenty of oxygen in your lungs to keep holding your breath, so just try to experience the contractions and not fight them. Carbon dioxides in small quantities aren't harmful, and you can train your body to get used to them. Another thing you shouldn't worry about when you're doing dry statics (on land) is going too far, for as you said you're practising laying down, and the worst that can happen is that you pass out. If you do, your body will relax and start breathing by itself again, and you'll wake up in a couple of seconds. Obviously, when you go this far in a pool you've got a problem, but on land it is safe. Not recommended, of course, and if you do pass out you've pushed waaaay too hard, but the point is as long as you're lying on land, you won't hurt yourself with statics, you're perfectly safe, so relax.

In short, relax relax relax, let your body do its thing and listen to it, the stop point is however many contractions you can handle, since you've got plenty of oxygen and there's no need to worry about anything.

As far as training is concenrned, train as often as you want, just make sure you've got at least one day a week to rest. Try walking without breathing, too, but don't go as long as you would laying down. Never ever do statics alone in the pool, though.

When you did yoga, did they explain the full breathing technique? That's the one you want, where you inhale with your belly first, then the sides of your ribcage, then to the front of your ribcage. Exhale chest first, then belly. Try and push out as much air as you can, get rid of that CO2 (carbon dioxides).

I know, contractions, diaphragm, exhaling, it all sounds like child birth, but it's a lot easier. Keep in mind that you'll be fine and swimming in Malaysia's beautiful blue soon, and those contractions will become helpful indicators for you to see how you are doing, how far into your breath-hold you are.

Enjoy,

Daan

 

[reesemortensen]

Thank you very much You guys really know :-D

So...i should try ignore those contractions??

You are right, its the urge too push out the air.

When i did yoga, its a dvd, they do explain how to breath, but i didnt really get the whole point. I can do the belly and only lungs respiration. Maybe i do it alreayd well, i am just way too perfectionist I never find myself satisfied with what i do.

And yes, i do panick a little when i feel those contractions. LOL

I did the lung capacity measure with the traditional way of a ballon and then the calculators that they had on the net. I have around 6,5-7,5. Not sure if that helps. I remember when i did those tests in the doctor...when i was 11, she told me i had really really big capacity. Do that helps??

Anyway...thanks a lot

Nora

 

[lungfish]

All good advice,
Ignoring contractions is not good, though. The idea, especially with tolerance tables like those I shared above, is to be alert and aware of changes in physiology as they happen. That way, your mind can gauge the condition of your body correctly, throughout the dive. It is different than just going for your personal best longest breath hold with people standing by while you float quietly....

If you can't begin and complete all 8 sets of the 02 table then try this:

02 table
1.ventilate 2:00 static :15
2.ventilate 2:00 static :30
3.ventilate 2:00 static :30
4.ventilate 2:00 static :30
5.ventilate 2:00 static :30
6.ventilate 2:00 static :30
7.ventilate 2:00 static :45
8.ventilate 2:00 static :45


Phase 1 C02 Table
1. ventilate 2:30 static :20
2. ventilate 2:15 static :20
3. ventilate 2:00 static :20
4. ventilate 1:45 static :20
5. ventilate 1:30 static :20
6. ventilate 1:15 static :20
7. ventilate 1:00 static :20
8. ventilate 1:00 static :20


If this works for you and you can complete it, we will add small increments as you improve...

You only need to do tolerance tables one Phase per week Day 1 02/Day3-4 C02

You can certainly do other training but these tables alone, with practice will open the door to long comfortable submersions.

If you have a large lung capacity, that is great. It really implies that your chest/intercostal flexibility is good which means you can take large peak inhales, and you can pack (an advanced technique, some consider it controversial but it is used by many top level divers) - which means you can hold extra air under pressure in your chest cavity.

Continue learning how to breath up. I like to practice it while listening to my heart beating. I can feel it slowing down....

Aerobic training of all kinds is good supplement to apnea practice... running, swimming, walking, along with tolerance tables will make you a stronger, more comfortable diver...

Lungfish

 

[reesemortensen]

Hiii! Thanks!!!

Actually, i am a bodybuilder, archer and i practice karate. So i guess i have enough strenght-cardiovascular workout

By the way...can you answer me some of the left questions in my post?? The one by numbers (if you can)

Pack up air?? How is done that? Just by breathing right??

Ok, so i wont ignore contractions.

I will try tonight the first table.

By the way, are there other kind of exercises/tables that i can do within the week??? ( i dont have a pool yet nor water,,,,just a bath LOL...maybe i can fill up and try there??? What do ya think??)

Thanks You are teaching me a lot

Nora

 

[lungfish]

Thank You very much

1. So these tables, i should only practice each of them once per week right? Whats the deal on only practicing once per week?? I mean, can it be practiced more? (just a question)

Yes, tolerance tables one Phase per week, two sessions, C02 and 02. You can do it twice a week in the begining to get used to the breath hold practice. There are other exercises you can do on off days. There are things like apnea walking, or hypoxic swimming where you increase your 02 debt while trying to maintain a work load...
2. When is the STOP limit. When i start get convulsions? If yes, that would be at 35 seconds.
There isn't one, really, the main thing is not to get to the point of a loss of motor control (lomc or Samba as we call it - not quite a black out but very close.
It is important to understand gas balances and the results of imbalances. For example, C02 buildup eventually causes the breathing reflex and can eventually lead to blackout. On one hand you need it to make certain that you breath before you deplete 02 to the point of black out - and Death - but on the other hand, you can learn an advanced technique to control your C02 levels so that you leave the surface with just a little less in your system, which will prolong your duration without endangering you. Don't worry about that technique now, just know that it is advanced, a little controversial, and part of the knowledge of gas balances for diving.

3. You said i could decrease example holding the breath from 1 min to 35-40 seconds if i couldnt hold longer. For the next "holding", i see it increases the seconds, how can i increase example 10 seconds if at the first i can barely get to a time?
I have presented a much modified version that can get you going, just be patient, relax and work through it.

4. What kind of breathing is the one recommended for dry apnea? I've done pilates and yoga, but i dont know if its the same kind. I did read something about filling the belly.
The closest aproximation of breathing up for apnea (dry or wet) is Pranayama style breathing. Quick inhale, short hold, long slow exhale

5. So the breath up, is it before going to the water right? And if i understood well, it must be done the the time of the apnea? I mean, if i will hold 2-3 min my breath, i should do that breath up 2-3 min?Correct. And you should do it on the surface for twice the duration of the previous dive

6. Is it possible to increase the capacity to hold breath? I just see it like a whole big world, getting to 1 min , whats the average time? (I've got maybe around 5 months before going to malaysia) Yes, and if you keep records and are diligent with the tolerance tables, you will see great improvement before you leave.

7. Those convulsions, should i hold them? Not listen to them or?? Pay attention to your body at all phases of Apnea. You are trying to train your body to do the work of gauges on a Scuba tank.... you have to be in tune, not tranced out. It might be unpleasant or uncomfortable to practice but I promise you that when you do dive, you will be so comfortable and so relaxed that you will become addicted to blue water opium.
8. Which suits/equipment you would recommend? I've seen mares doing a special one for apnea, and another brand that makes the by your exact measurements. What more is required? The belt? But with how much weight?
I suggest apnea suits and there are a few of them out there. You can get really nice ones at www.performancefreediving.com get the ones with a harder nylon outer shell so you won't tear them up on coral and stuff. Basically, even a simple 3mm Scuba suit would work for starters. If you go to www.spearfishinggear.com click "Packages" you will see a nice starter kit - Omer Black, Millenium fins, etc.... if you go with that, check with us about fitting before you buy. I use www.specialfins.com Carbon Fiber Stereo Pro fins.... Falcon C4 fins are popular carbon fins also, not quite as expensive and good quality. Carbon Fiber fins perform far better overall than plastic ones (the Omer package I suggested has plastic fins) but if you are just starting out, the plastic Omers are just great. And you can upgrade by buying new blades that fit on the Omer footpockets rather than entire new fins and footpockets..
A dive knife for cutting line - SOG Knives Navy Seal Pup Elite is perfect, look it up on Ebay and get a new one for half the price of the SOG website (they make the knives for the US Navy Seals), its small, sharp and has a line cutter in case you get tangled up in fishing line and need to cut your way out.
Finkeepers - little rubber band thingees that hold your fins to your feet.
Mask - Omer Alien, Omer Abyss are good starters, there are a million others, just ask us if one catches your eye.
Gloves, for coral, etc... a good golf glove is comparable to a good dive glove.

Freedivers in wetsuit and all gear strive to be neutrally bouyant at 33ft. It takes 4-8 lbs depending on the person to do that. A good rubber weight belt with an easy break away (so you can drop it if you need to - they are cheaper than your life...) can be found on the www.bluewaterhunter.com site. Robbie at info@bluewaterhunter.com is a good contact.
9. Yeah, a course would be great, i may take it in malaysia, there are one-to-one trainers. I get stressed with lot of people. When i am alone or with 2-3 persons i am ok

www.performancefreediving.com does course in Kona, Hawaii. Good training, check it out!

10. Again, thanks a lot , by the way, how did ya get started in freediving? And which speciality you practice? If you look at my journals on this site, you will see why I like to freedive. I am not a competitor, I am more of an extreme snorkeler. I like diving very deep and work hard and train hard to be able to. I have a house I just leased in Kona near my favorite dive spot just so I could spend the next six months training and diving. I believe in following your passions and I really, really like freediving in blue water around sea life...
THANKs, sorry, but those questions maybe silly, But i am a baby in this
Ask away, we are all here to help each other dive safely and enjoy this unique practice.
Nora

 

[lungfish]

I wonder if other posters on this list would agree with me that archery and freediving have similar qualities in concentration and execution, with great attention to breathing and mindset.....
I have a martial arts background, was a competitive swimmer, etc and I found the same type of inner mind in freediving. A combination of the desire to excel and the simple desire to be down there.

Lungfish

 

[reesemortensen]

Thank you so much!

Wow! we have many things in common: martial arts, passion for freediving and competitive swimmer.

i was a competitive swimmer too!!!

Archery is extreme focus...yes...its quite hard. It gets me on focus, its aiming the perfection. I love archery. I do both compound and olympic bows. But i preffer compounds, it looks nice, it feels nice, plus you can add many gadgets in competition, which in olympic (recurve bow) you cant.

try it, you will love it. I havent heard any that said its a bad sport. Its very relaxing. You and yourself, nothing else. But many doesnt try because of fear or kinda its way too complex. Its complex, but not something that someone cant learn. And it provides self esteem and kind of security, because after all, a bow its a weapon, and you feel like more sure of yourself knowing you can defend with a bow. Because you cannot defend yourself if the technique is not proper.

Anyway, i wont give an archery seminar here LOL (i would love to!!, )

Take care

nora

 

[reesemortensen]

Wow!!! awesome!! I would love to have a house near the sea So i could practice always :-D

Thanks for all the advices,

Which martial arts did you do?

I will try tomorrow the tables...and see to where i can go.

There is a thing i didnt get: when is my "maximum"? When i feel i need to...desesperately exhale the breath??? Or when it becomes really hard??

I am just scared to black out, ok, i am not in the water, but yet...if my mom is close...she will start like i shouldnt do this and stop it and all of that. She will freak out more than me LOL,

Thanks

nora

 

[reesemortensen]

Ops, i didnt understand, you did sell your house so you could freedive for 6 months??

MMM sorry...sometimes i dont get the concept on english

nora

 

[reesemortensen]

I Got An Eye On A Thing: Freediving Monofin!!! It Looks Sooo Cool! (do It Works As Good As It Looks?)

Nora

 

[lungfish]

Hi Reese,
Well, I am leasing a large second home so that I can dive and invite fellow freedivers to come and stay for very cheap.... that way I might learn something and I get to hang out with fellow freedivers, spearos, uw photographers....
I have a business in San Francisco and am begining one in Hawaii:

My invitation is at: DeeperBlue.net Forums > Freediving > Find A Buddy & Places to Dive > Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific>Kona, Hawaii - Freedivers Welcome!

Monofins are neat but they call for a different type of swimming. Lots of people own both and use the mono for competition and the bi-fins for diving, spearing, etc.

Don't worry about blacking out.... you do have good concentration and could probably force yourself to pass out but your body will take care of you if you do. (Never do statics in water alone.- Really, you can have an accident so easily) Just try to do the tables sitting up in a chair or couch and let me know if you can complete them or not and we can take it from there.

I have practiced some kind of martial art all my life...and I train even today. When I was in my teens and early 20s I shot on competitive rifle teams so I can appreciate the confidence and enjoyment you get from the bow. I did study Kyudo - Japanese archery for a few months and really enjoyed it. The concentration, the breathing, the surrender to the ineivitable and the satisfaction of the control is exhilerating.....

and when he asked the master how he was able to make such a miraculous shot, the master replied.... "I close my eyes."

Did you look at my journal entries here on the site? You might enjoy them.


Lungfish

 

[dannybuoy]

Wow Lungfish,

That idea of leasing a house on Hawaï is awesome! Hope you succeed. It's inspirational to see you following your passion, and heart-warming to read how kind and patient you are with 'baby' Nora.

Talking about the Baby, i agree that archery is for several reasons a good sport in combination with freediving, as it also naturally stretches the chest. Martial Arts are good too, and with all the fitness you do, Nora, plus that big lung capacity of yours, you shouldn't have a problem achieving your goal at all. The only thing that physically stands in your way, i think, is that you also do bodybuilding.

There's nothing wrong with bodybuilding, of course, it's just that it creates bigger muscles, and bigger muscles demand more oxygen, burn through oxygen quicker, and create more carbon dioxides. In freediving you want lean muscles. Think about it this way: for bodybuilding you do about 8-10 reps at 80% of your max weight, slow movements, right? For freediving, it is recommended to do 30-40% of max, 20-30 reps a minute; see how that's sort of opposite? Plus with bodybuilding your body gets used to burning fuel (food) at a high rate, and with freediving you want your metabolism to slow down as well (best to do those tables on an empty stomach).

So i'd suggest adjusting your weight-training. If you don't want to give up bodybuilding, you'll still progress with the tables Lungfish gave you, but it'll be much harder.

Daan

PS I've been training with my monofin for a couple of months now, and once you get the hang of it, once it clicks, it is the most free, dolphinest and sexiest way to move. Highly and deeply recommended.

 

[reesemortensen]

Hiii!!!

Dannybuoy: Yes! Lungfish is veeery patient with me . Ummm i dont think i would give up bodybuilding for nothing on earth. It saved my health. It teached me how to live a 100% healthy lifestyle. I have hypothyroidism, hypertension, hyperinsulinism and PCOS, its a true drink for the metabolism!!!! So losing fat is extremely hard. I do have medications, and all is under control, but it still hard to lose the fat. Not like a normal with no problems person. Now i dont want to gain more muscle mass, just lose the fat. My lean mass is 75kg (170lbs), so i dont think its excessive. Yes, more muscle more oxygen, but you see, in bodybuilding we want to have the lowest heart rate possible during the resting time or no-workout days. In freediving is the momentum, meaning the moment you hold the air is when you need the lowest heart rate right?

Anyway, i will have to try the freediving to see how it works. I am still 18, my body can adapt faster i think. Atleast it did adapt to many things very fast. Thanks ;-)

Lungfish: Thanks again and again , and wow! Thats great what you did! I bet you learn much like that, plus get to meet many new freedivers sounds cool! Its nice that you tried japanese archery, its good to try new things.

I still didnt read all of your journal, i saw it, yes.

The monofins i saw, are very expensive: $499!!! LOL, my parents wouldnt pay me that never! I already asked a canon 30d camera+the lenses+accesories, a compound bow+accesories, and now a diving suit+fins+mask+belt and all of that...LOL. They will kill me...

Anyway...i will tell ya how this table works, i have still empty stomach so i will try

Take care...

Kisses to ya both!!!! Thanks for your help!

Nora