The old training adage 'no pain, no gain' has left most training routines for an approach that is less prone to overtraining and injury. However, what I remember from power sports like rock climbing is that the intensity of the stimulus created during training is what counts. Not numbers of repetitions, not total duration, but intensity. Now, with freediving we don't train muscles for maximum contraction, so things might be totally different, I suspect - or are they? I'd much rather get my body gently used to higher CO2 levels than going through a fight in each static. Now my question is: does it need the fight, or can we achieve the same gains by only 'gently' going beyond our comfort zone? Curious hear about your experiences!
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No pain, no gain - or gently does it?
- Thread starterPenyu
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
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Good question, i'm looking forward to everybody's opinions.
I am defiantly of the gently does it school of thought. I'm sure that most people will agree that freediving for the average level athlete who can already mouthfull, fin etc... is around 80% mental. and relaxation is the key.
Every advancement in Apnea is a step into the unknown, and there is nothing more scary than the unknown. so always pushing harder and harder takes you further and further into that unknown which must result in lack of focus/relaxation.
So mammoth co2 tables etc... may not be the way forward if they leave negative psychological effects, such as pre dive apprehension or fear of contractions.
I'v found the best way to improve my relaxation is repetition of the same time/depth until you can do it in a calm manner without any pre dive nerves or negative thoughts during the dive. then you have a solid base to improve from.
I mean freediving should be fun, so those who enjoy tough breath holds can crack on, but those who don't might be better off taking there foot off the gas and try a different approach.
Personally all my greatest gains in performance/understanding have been from a gentle approach.
I dont hold much regard for the physical benefits of training co2 tolerance, although i'm sure there are some changes you can make physiologically i dont believe them to be of much consequence. I'm sure the benefits you receive are mostly psychological.
I am defiantly of the gently does it school of thought. I'm sure that most people will agree that freediving for the average level athlete who can already mouthfull, fin etc... is around 80% mental. and relaxation is the key.
Every advancement in Apnea is a step into the unknown, and there is nothing more scary than the unknown. so always pushing harder and harder takes you further and further into that unknown which must result in lack of focus/relaxation.
So mammoth co2 tables etc... may not be the way forward if they leave negative psychological effects, such as pre dive apprehension or fear of contractions.
I'v found the best way to improve my relaxation is repetition of the same time/depth until you can do it in a calm manner without any pre dive nerves or negative thoughts during the dive. then you have a solid base to improve from.
I mean freediving should be fun, so those who enjoy tough breath holds can crack on, but those who don't might be better off taking there foot off the gas and try a different approach.
Personally all my greatest gains in performance/understanding have been from a gentle approach.
I dont hold much regard for the physical benefits of training co2 tolerance, although i'm sure there are some changes you can make physiologically i dont believe them to be of much consequence. I'm sure the benefits you receive are mostly psychological.
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@harrychamas: this is also my current approach. I find that much before I leave my physical comfort zone, my mental limits have been reached. I wander though if the mental barrier (of anxiety towards the end of a dive) prevents me from giving my body the necessary physical training stimulus for adaptation (to higher CO2 and lower O2 levels). Have you made significant improvements in your dive times following the 'gently does it' school?
Hay Penyu,
By nature i am not the type to take it slow, at first i was getting PB's on every dive session untill i hit 44m and left dahab.
But then i moved to Thailand and to the the Philippines where i was limited to around 30m depth and have been to this date. i will be in dahab for 2 months starting mid july so that will be my first chance to see how the slow approach trance-fares to depth.
So i cant answer for my improvements in dive times/depth at this moment. What i can talk about is the change in attitude that has occurred. Knowing the levels of relaxation i have attained doing 30m has taught me the futility of putting new pb's before relaxation, so automatically I'm not going to progress to a deeper dive untill my current depth can be done without any negative feelings.
Also by experimenting with shorter breath holds and concentrating on reducing my contractions i have realised that you can put off or stop them, so now if i do feel them on a dive i take it as a sign that i'm not as calm or focused as i could be. were as before i would think, "oh no now they'v started" as i if was a victim of these contractions and they will automatically get worse and worse.
Knowing i can do the dive easily also allows me to concentrate on other things such as muscular and especially stomach/diaphragm relaxation or mouthfill. If a dive is tough then that is not the time to be trying new things, these things should be drilled into you during easier dives.
Right now i feel like this time has change me for the better as a freediver, for example, I remember one panicked, rushed cnf dive to 25m that i did in the beginning that left me hypoxic, now i do no warm up, half lung cnf dives to 30m without a contraction and totally relaxed.
I'll let you know how it all goes after dahab
By nature i am not the type to take it slow, at first i was getting PB's on every dive session untill i hit 44m and left dahab.
But then i moved to Thailand and to the the Philippines where i was limited to around 30m depth and have been to this date. i will be in dahab for 2 months starting mid july so that will be my first chance to see how the slow approach trance-fares to depth.
So i cant answer for my improvements in dive times/depth at this moment. What i can talk about is the change in attitude that has occurred. Knowing the levels of relaxation i have attained doing 30m has taught me the futility of putting new pb's before relaxation, so automatically I'm not going to progress to a deeper dive untill my current depth can be done without any negative feelings.
Also by experimenting with shorter breath holds and concentrating on reducing my contractions i have realised that you can put off or stop them, so now if i do feel them on a dive i take it as a sign that i'm not as calm or focused as i could be. were as before i would think, "oh no now they'v started" as i if was a victim of these contractions and they will automatically get worse and worse.
Knowing i can do the dive easily also allows me to concentrate on other things such as muscular and especially stomach/diaphragm relaxation or mouthfill. If a dive is tough then that is not the time to be trying new things, these things should be drilled into you during easier dives.
Right now i feel like this time has change me for the better as a freediver, for example, I remember one panicked, rushed cnf dive to 25m that i did in the beginning that left me hypoxic, now i do no warm up, half lung cnf dives to 30m without a contraction and totally relaxed.
I'll let you know how it all goes after dahab
Hi harrychamas,
your personal development sounds great, both in terms of numbers as well as in approach. I hope I can stay away from the hunt for numbers and just focus on developing as diver. Easier said than done. Does your 'gentle approach' work equally well for you when doing statics? For example I got somehow psychologically worn out by doing tables controlled by time. Now I do them with number of contractions as a marker and I never reallly push it either. To me the motivation level remains higher like that, since I do not associate a great degree of unpleasantness with doing tables. I wonder though if its still effective in terms of improving in the long run. I envy you for the diving opportunities you have. Enjoy!
your personal development sounds great, both in terms of numbers as well as in approach. I hope I can stay away from the hunt for numbers and just focus on developing as diver. Easier said than done. Does your 'gentle approach' work equally well for you when doing statics? For example I got somehow psychologically worn out by doing tables controlled by time. Now I do them with number of contractions as a marker and I never reallly push it either. To me the motivation level remains higher like that, since I do not associate a great degree of unpleasantness with doing tables. I wonder though if its still effective in terms of improving in the long run. I envy you for the diving opportunities you have. Enjoy!
Training can work both ways. I'm definitely in the slow and gentle camp. It works, but it helps to be working on a technique that has considerable potential. For example, when I was getting into FRC diving, I was doing a very slow progression mostly in the pool. My times for a reasonably comfortable dive went from less than 2 to well past 3 in a year or so. The pool work carried over into open water diving(not as long of course, but it allowed me to go a bunch deeper.)
I have experimented a little with FRC. My FRC static time went from something like 20 seconds to 1:30 on a good day. I also do like the feeling of diving a length (25m) FRC. Since I am relatively new to the sport I refrain from diving deep on less than full lungs for fear of a squeeze. Obviously contractions start earlier on FRC and somewhere on this forum I read to 'make them your friend'. Well, we are very slowly becoming more friendly with each other... How many do you hold on a reasonably long static/FRC dive?
To be honest to don't train for static Pb's i only enjoy the depth disciplines. and like i said before i don't think doing apnea that you don't enjoy will bring enough benefits to be worth it. Also if depth is your target then i would go as far as to say traditional long static is almost a waste of time. i'll explain.
To do a static you will take a full or 3/4 breath generally, then much of the struggle is involving the pressure of the air trying to force its way out of your throat (due to stomach tension). then after some time the contractions kick in and its just a question of riding them out for as long as you can.
But in depth once you'v done the duck dive and a few kicks there is no pressure in your throat. not only that but once you reach your RV you have negative pressure in your lungs. as far as feelings go, full lung static and cwt below your RV couldn't be much more different.
The 2 most difficult things you must master when you start doing dives below your RV are keeping the epiglottis closed and keeping the stomach muscles and diaphragm relaxed, and a great way to practice these things are empty lung statics if you don't have any depth, or FRC/empty lung dives if you do which are even better training. Slow progression with a technique that has considerable potential like cdavis said.
This is just my approach, the cool thing about freediving is there is no 1 "best" way to do things, just what's best for you.
Spot on! It's exactly this (to me still) unfamiliar feeling of 'emptiness' that startled me on my first and so far only dive to 20m. Put a couple of contractions on top of it and my calm was gone. To be honest, I did not enjoy that at all. Hence gearing down and pursuing the 'slow and gentle' approach now, trying to listen and feel my way forward step by step. Do you 'ride out' as many contractions on an FRC hold as you do on a full lungs hold/dive or does everything decrease proportionally?
If i do static then i will get contractions much sooner while on empty lung.
timing your holds by how many contraction you have is one way of training, but then for me there is no reason to try to overcome the contractions because the sooner you let yourself get them the sooner you can breathe again.
i pre-fair to hold for a set amount of time and try to reduce the amount of contractions i feel in that time with each breath hold.
While getting into empty lung holds, i recommend a o2 table sort of structure, start on 20 secs and then build up by 10 secs with each hold until you have found the edge of your comfort zone, maybe 4 or 5 contractions, then keep doing that amount of time each day you train but try to do it without contractions. once you can do that then up the time again.
when diving at first it helped me to remember that although i feel empty that i actually have just as much O2 as on the surface, only its been compressed.
timing your holds by how many contraction you have is one way of training, but then for me there is no reason to try to overcome the contractions because the sooner you let yourself get them the sooner you can breathe again.
i pre-fair to hold for a set amount of time and try to reduce the amount of contractions i feel in that time with each breath hold.
While getting into empty lung holds, i recommend a o2 table sort of structure, start on 20 secs and then build up by 10 secs with each hold until you have found the edge of your comfort zone, maybe 4 or 5 contractions, then keep doing that amount of time each day you train but try to do it without contractions. once you can do that then up the time again.
when diving at first it helped me to remember that although i feel empty that i actually have just as much O2 as on the surface, only its been compressed.