One more thread about tables

[Groenberg]

My question actually consists of 2 parts, each one according to CO2/O2 tables.

O2 tables:
When the table gets too easy for me, when do i increase the time of the holds and when do i shorten the recovery?
(looking at some published tables i found ones with 1 min and others with 2:30 min of rest, which really makes a difference...)

CO2 tables:
Again the previous table is getting too easy. What consideration makes me increase the apnea-time instead of decreasing the recovery-time? When should i better do it the other way around?
(ok, i don't mean the case that minimum recovery time already is at 15 sec...)

Is there a set of rules to answer my questions? Or doesn't it make a difference and it's just a matter of individual preferences?
Thx for your answers.

 

[Panos Lianos]

O2 tables: The point is to keep the breathing interval long enough to get rid of CO2 and increase the apnea times long enough to make it an O2 training (hypoxic). So I wouldn't do less than 3 min breathing interval.

CO2 tables: The point is to shorten the breathing interval so you don't have time to get rid of the CO2. So I would say, keep decreasing the breathing interval down to perhaps 5sec. Then if it's too easy, increase the apnea time.

All of the above also depends on your experience.

 

[lungfish]

Hi,
With O2 tables: maintain 2min ventilations through Phase 10 and Increase statics by 15sec increments per level (ie Phase one begins statics at 1min, Phase two begins statics at 1:15, Phase 3 begins statics at 1:30, etc...) and finish the last two sets, 7 and 8 with the same duration.

With C02 tables: decrease ventilations by 15secs while maintaining statics at 1:30 through Phase 5, then maintain ventilation pattern beginning at 1:45 and increase static period by 15secs for each Phase 6-20.

If you chart out the pattern and then read my recommendations, you will understand the progression.

good luck!

Lungfish

 

[Groenberg]

Hi

First of all thx for your hint. I already read your posts about the static tables and the several phases.

So do i understand you right, that your advice is to dump the tables i did till now and go to the ones you wrote about?

Unless the fact that i didn't do too much of O2 tables, these where the tables i did till now:

O2 CO2
Dive Rest Dive Rest
01:45 01:30 02:15 02:00
02:00 01:30 02:15 01:45
02:15 01:30 02:15 01:30
02:30 01:30 02:15 01:15
02:45 01:30 02:15 01:00
03:00 01:30 02:15 00:45
03:15 01:30 02:15 00:30
03:30 01:30 02:15 00:15

Following your instructions this would mean to change them to this:

O2 CO2
Dive Rest Dive Rest
02:15 02:00 02:15 02:00
02:30 02:00 02:15 01:45
02:45 02:00 02:15 01:30
03:00 02:00 02:15 01:15
03:15 02:00 02:15 01:00
03:30 02:00 02:15 00:45
03:45 02:00 02:15 00:30
04:00 02:00 02:15 00:15

But this takes me to one more question. If i didn't make a mistake in calculation I'm in phase #6 for O2 and in #8 for CO2. Is it required to be in the same phase for O2 and CO2?
If it is so, does it mean that even if i can complete the CO2 table with ease i have to wait for the next phase in CO2 until i completed phase 8 in O2?

You see that despite your advice i still am a bit confused. But it's great seeing people that keep patiently answering beginners questions.

 

[fogish]

I don't have the definitive answer for this since I am a beginner myself, but I would say that no, you don't have to be in the same phase for both. It just shows that you need more work on your O2 than your CO2. The way I have been going about it is I find which table I can do easily, then add or subtract the recommended 15 sec. and see if it is still easy. If I have to work a little bit at it, I do that table a few times, then I up the time again and see how hard that is.

Of course I am also not in a rush to get anywhere, and I am just enjoying the scenery along the way. I am sure if you wanted to you could get your O2 at the same table as the CO2, but it seems to me that you would want to just progress forward with both of them, whatever "level" they happen to be at.

 

[naiad]

I have done those tables, and I didn't always do the same phase for both. My O2 tolerance is always ahead of my CO2 tolerance. I don't know if this is good or bad, but I like to make as much progress as possible in both, even if they are not always at the same level.

Lucia

 

[Groenberg]

First of all thank you for the answers. I think they'll help me a lot to progress.

Since i didn't have a samba/bo until now i thought that improving my CO2-tolerance was most important cause my O2-level seems to be fine. But i think not having had a samba is just because i cannot fight contractions for more than maybe 1:15 min. Or it was a wrong consideration at all.
BTW: Is there a way to explicitly train fighting contractions? Empty lung statics or so?

According to your answers i'll do more O2 tables to get a better level there. Lungfish, your tables give one a good idea about which table you have to work on.

O2 tables: The point is to keep the breathing interval long enough to get rid of CO2 and increase the apnea times long enough to make it an O2 training (hypoxic). So I wouldn't do less than 3 min breathing interval.

Sounds pretty logical to me. So i'll give it a try.
After doing CO2 tables i often do 5 mins of rest and afterwards i do 3 holds of 3:30 min. In the 3rd hold i get first contractions after 3:20 min which is really late for me. So i take it as an argument for your suggestion.

But i think, i'll stick with a minimum of 15 sec breathing with CO2 Tables. It is hard enough for me. Maybe the later.

So again thank you for your suggestions. New ones are alway welcome.

 

[ramstam]

Something interesting about contractions and longer statics. Every time I have ever made it past 5 min I have not had any contractions during the hold. I'm not sure if it's cheating, but I drink kava to keep from getting contractions. The same week I started packing for statics and drinking more kava my pb time jumped by 75 sec.

 

[DeepThought]

Do you think it is possible to create some kind of conditioning in a way that will make your body/mind react similarly with less and less kava till you will have to take none? maybe a conditioned placebo effect?
I am not familier with the mechanism of kava but I think it should be theoretically possible if some of the active ingridiants are found in the body naturally.
I've read somewhere about some trial that has been done with adrenalin. They injected people with andrenanlin in the same settings (time of day/place whatever) and gave them a strawberry candy and checked after a while if they had andrenalin present in their blood (yes).
After some time they either reduced gradually the amount of injected andrenalin or stoped and just injected saline, but still gave them the candy and the check for andrenalin in their blood came out positive. Probably can't find easier substances to condition people to than andrenalin, but it could be an interesting experiment.

Also, do you use kava for real diving as well? is it just a sedative or does it slow the metabolism as well and actually helps you to conserve O2? Do you feel safe diving with it? what kind of diving?

(this is all academical interest)

 

[ramstam]

I think it would be possible to mimic the mental parts, but the muscle relaxation
I am not sure about. Often I dive the day after drinking kava, but to be honest I don't push myself to the point that I would be able to tell the difference. I am comfortable with 30-45 sec rests at ~35 meters and I spend about 2-3 hours in the water, if my buddy(wife) does not get cold. Yes, I feel safe, but it makes me need to drink more water than usual. It may change my metabolic rate, but it would take some actual research to know for sure.