Packing = barotrauma?

[superhornet59]

Hi all, i know ive been posting alot lately about barotrauma and the like, but i cant help it, find it interesting. anyway, i noticed that people accend without noticing the pressure building up in there lungs (when they breath compressed air obviously) now as that just because of panic, or can you actualy not feel it? i have packed a few times until i felt pain in my inter-costal joint area (middle of chest). does that mean i can get barotrauma if i pack that much?

also i have filled my mouth (inflated my cheeks too) to the point where i felt as if air was entering near the back of my jaw. when i touch the area it makes a small crackling sensation, just as what happens in barotrauama. does that mean it is?

and finaly what is embolism?

thanks -Matt

 

[naiad]

I don't know about barotrauma, but packing until it hurts is definitely not a good idea. It is possible to get hurt by overpacking. (And there's also the possibility of blacking out.)

Embolism is when a blood vessel is blocked, usually by a blood clot or by air which has entered the bloodstream. It is very serious and can be caused by barotrauma, such as when a scuba diver ascends while holding his breath.

Lucia

 

[JPPLAY]

also i have filled my mouth (inflated my cheeks too) to the point where i felt as if air was entering near the back of my jaw. when i touch the area it makes a small crackling sensation, just as what happens in barotrauama. does that mean it is?

thanks -Matt

Sounds like your equalizing. That crackling sensation is rather normal with equalization. If you took a stethoscope and put it by your ear you would hear that when you equalize. When you inflated you mouth so much it could of been like the Frenzel forcing the air upwards.

 

[naiad]

I don't know what it is in Matt's case, but for me it is definitely under the jaw, not in the ear, and I can feel the crackling air if I press it. I noticed this ages ago, before I started diving, probably when I was a kid pulling faces.

 

[JPPLAY]

I don't know what it is in Matt's case, but for me it is definitely under the jaw, not in the ear, and I can feel the crackling air if I press it. I noticed this ages ago, before I started diving, probably when I was a kid pulling faces.

What happening is it the muscles when you yawn or swollen working. They pull at your tube so equalizing for you. That why some people can equalize just by yawning or swallowing. Well all people can if trained right.

 

[JPPLAY]

does that mean i can get barotrauma if i pack that much?

Packing has no effect on if you will get barotrauma or not. Barotrauma only caused by pressure on the middle ear. If you took that air and if what Efattah says is true that with Frenzel you can cause enough pressure that you can damage your ears it may be true. I think he did state that is only on land though. Barotrauma from what I have experienced and know is usually only caused by divers not equalizing enough and still going deeper when there ears are equalizing. I hope my posts help. Feel free to send me a private message.

 

[Alexx]

Barotrauma is any trauma caused by pressure, therefore it is not related with ears only.

 

[crusty]

Batorauma can happen to any part of you body that is pressurised with air,
Most likely places are Lungs, Chest Cavity, Sinuses, Ears etc, it is simply the expanding air not being released naturaly.

As i understand you can get a Barotruma injury from Packing.

If you pack and dive deap to the point where all the air in you lungs is compressed, as you ascend the expanding air in your lungs can get trapped in pockets in your lungs.
This is due to you lungs being squeezed together at depth and not expanding
correctly or sticking together in patches and the expanding air will cause localised Barotrauma.

Sebastion Murat or Eric will be able to explain in more but im hope i have explained the basic princable

Crusty

 

[island_sands]

Hi all, i know ive been posting alot lately about barotrauma and the like, but i cant help it, find it interesting. anyway, i noticed that people accend without noticing the pressure building up in there lungs (when they breath compressed air obviously) now as that just because of panic, or can you actualy not feel it? i have packed a few times until i felt pain in my inter-costal joint area (middle of chest). does that mean i can get barotrauma if i pack that much?

also i have filled my mouth (inflated my cheeks too) to the point where i felt as if air was entering near the back of my jaw. when i touch the area it makes a small crackling sensation, just as what happens in barotrauama. does that mean it is?

and finaly what is embolism?

thanks -Matt

HI Matty, good to see you active and asking loads of questions.

A barotrauma is any pressure injury - not just in your ears, can be your lungs too.

An embolism is the worst of all barotrauma - and can be fatal. See this (scuba example but well explained).
http://www.scuba-doc.com/artgsemb.htm

 

[jome]

It is certainly possible to injure yourself with packing too much, just on dry land. Many people have reported this in DB and even I have experienced it. My best guess would be though, that the injury was not to the lung, but the intercostal muscles etc. I was sore for a couple of days and was examined by a doctor. He couldn't find anything that would indicate lung puncture, so he convinced me not to get an x-ray (just needless radiation).

He was of the opinnion that you could not generate enough pressure to rupture the lung, your epiglottis would give in first. But I disagree to an extent, since most divers who pack extremely full don't hold the air back with the epiglottis, but "the tongue block" or simply their lips.

Then of course there are people that are more prone to punctures because of structural differences and defects. There might be scarring due to trauma or sickness, which weakens the lung etc. It's perfectly possible to get a lung puncture by being completely passive. For such a person packing would propably be a very bad idea. At least before the lungs have been checked...

I would advice against "extreme packing" anyway. There are currently (to my knowledge) no reasons to assume it is not unhealthy. Moderate packing, up to the point of mild discomfort is propably quite safe. And if you do that long enough, gradually your packing amount will increase in a healthy way. Anyway, if you doubt that you have injured your self with packing, then it's always best to check it with a professional. Be prepared for some confused looks and explaining though, since the average m.d has now clue to what you could possibly mean by "packing so much my lungs may have popped". They'll just think you're insane

By embolism you propably refer to air embolism, which to my understanding is air entering the bloodstream due to over pressure or ruptures in the lung and the bubbles then causing all kinds of havoc (mainly, death) in the body.

 

[superhornet59]

thanks for your replies everybody. lol i know what equalizing is like and it was not that, it was equalizing in the sense where i would apply more and more pressure until i suddenly felt it pass into another part. that part was not my ear, it was my cheek where my jaw meets my skulls. and i do infact here crackling, and i did this on the surface, exactly like naids case. lol i didnt pull my cheecks, just inflated to see if i could make my face bigger

as for the packing thing i just did it to see how much air i could get, and i was on my bed, and i felt a pain in my intercostal joints, so i stopped. using my abs to lift myself made it hurt, so i let my air out. i generaly dont pack that much anyway. so what is the pressure in your lungs whilst packing (like i did) and when assending with compressed air. my point is if people dont notice the air expanding in there lungs, and dont feel pain, then havent i already exceeded that pressure?

and crusty, are you saying if i pack hard enough on the surface (for example untill i feel the pain) and i dive and comeback up, air can get trapped and cause barotrauma?

 

[crusty]

As far as i understand it can cause Barotruma.
The likelyhood of it happening is low but it can happen.
If you do dive deep the pressure of the surrounding water will compress the air in your lungs completly and allow your lungs to squeeze together.
If you look at pictures of free divers at depth you will see their chest is compressed.
As you ascend the air in you lungs expands and if you have a section of lung that is not expanding properly ( tissue may be stuck together) the lagre amount of expanding air you have packed inot you lungs has to go some where and may cause barotrauma.
There is also a problem with the avolie ( not spelt correctly) but i cant remember what it is.

If you need more info try Efettah, Eric is a full book on this sort of stuff.
Or Sebastian Murrat i did his free dive course and became aware of it there.

Crusty

 

[superhornet59]

is this independant of speed of assent? i would think if you go up fast (monofin especialy) itll be more likely. also at like 300 feet a divers lungs become smaller then the volume of air in your mask, if you use fluid goggles can you possibly go longer due to double the air volume in your lungs at that depth (not all will be oxygen, but its still precious meters) and are there any exercises i can do to prevent injury from lung shrinking and to increase the stenght of the dive relfex?