Packing vs. a FULL inhale

[azapa]

OK, so I can now pack, a bit. Don't tell me not to on this thread as I am aware of the pros and Cons. Eric and Pete have brainwashed me too. So don't start. OK!?

Question:
Doing a full diaphragm and chest inhale, I can pack about 8 to 12 times effectively (in the sense that I hear and feel the air entry).

But if I add the "shoulder shrug" (sorry) to the standard full diaphragm and chest inhale I can hardly pack anything else.

Is this normal? Is my packing "style" not effective? I can see the benefits of a full diaphragm and chest inhale and topping of with packing as the muscle use may be less (but the breath hold longer)

Are athletes too lazy to use full inhales? Does packing "look cooler"? Am I bored at work? all this and more bellow:

 

[efattah]

It takes quite a while for your lung tissue to stretch such that you can benefit from shoulder shrugging.

Some divers find that an 85% inhale following by a bit of packing takes less energy than a 100% inhale.

 

[Silentspear]

How do you pack?

 

[azapa]

thanks eric. I would say then my shoulder shrug is very good

SilentSpear: its never used in spearfishing, only at competitive freediving level, and even then increasingly less. I will respectfully decline to describe in futher detail other than to say its forcing air into your lungs. Yes, it is as uncomfortable as it sounds.. In the enviroment of a good course you may be taught it but I think only from AIDA level *** up.

 

[Mullins]

OK, so I can now pack, a bit. Don't tell me not to on this thread as I am aware of the pros and Cons.

Pack, Pack, Pack!

Raising my shoulders does give me marginally more volume to begin with, not sure exactly how many packs it would be equal to though. I don't think there's a decline in the use of packing for competitive freediving, especially in the pool. Are people packing less in CW these days, on the whole?

 

[fflupo]

with all the frc dives i m doing i have realized that on a max. cw dive i take less air down every year,
on a 3 min cw dive i m not even full inhaled anymore and the mouth-fill supports me
packing i do only when im traveling

i think my DR is stronger when i not packing or inhale full

 

[B-J]

Originally posted by azapa:

But if I add the "shoulder shrug" (sorry) to the standard full diaphragm and chest inhale I can hardly pack anything else.

Do you stop because you can`t do the thing with your mouth or is it because of discomfort? I`m pretty sure that if you can pack properly it would be no problem to injure your lungs. For me I started with 5-7 gulps and now I can almost do 30. (Packing for 2-3 years)
My opinion is that doing a moderate inhale and then maybe 5 extra gulps would be beneficial rather than using alot of power to get that superbig inhale. My DR actually starts as soon as I begin my packing. It`s while since I measured but I think my heartrate went down by more than 15 beats/min during a 15 sec packing.

 

[DeepThought]

My DR actually starts as soon as I begin my packing. It`s while since I measured but I think my heartrate went down by more than 15 beats/min during a 15 sec packing.

I doubt this is the DR that causes that. Direct pressure of the lungs on the heart and increased resistance in the heart-lung blood circulation and maybe other blood pressure changes are more likely causes than the DR. As far as I know there's nothing physiologically similar between packing and the inducers of the dive response.

 

[azapa]

Originally posted by azapa:

Do you stop because you can`t do the thing with your mouth or is it because of discomfort? I`m pretty sure that if you can pack properly it would be no problem to injure your lungs. For me I started with 5-7 gulps and now I can almost do 30. (Packing for 2-3 years)
My opinion is that doing a moderate inhale and then maybe 5 extra gulps would be beneficial rather than using alot of power to get that superbig inhale. My DR actually starts as soon as I begin my packing. It`s while since I measured but I think my heartrate went down by more than 15 beats/min during a 15 sec packing.

I stop because it starts hurting around my lower throat area and chest in general. What signs do you look for to stop? Am I being a wimp?

 

[B-J]

Maybe it`s not my DR afterall, but the drop in heartrate is very similar to what I get when I`m holding my breath without packing. For me I get a sudden change in my heartrate as soon as I stop breathing normally. If I`m wearing my polar and relax a while, then start to breath to little my HR drops. In a breathhold when do you suppose normally the DR kicks in?

And azapa, in this matter it is very smart to be a wimp:naughty I can only relate to what I`ve experienced. For me it has worked out pushing it some. But I just do it until big discomfort. Never pain. It is alot of stuff stretching so I guess it has to be uncomfortable.

 

[bite ya]

Quite an interesting thread topic this one, i have only just began to pack recently before Dynamic and Static and have found it o.k. I can only pack about 12 times comfortably but each week i try to up this by one or two more packs.

Just want to make sure i'm getting this right, when i take my last breath before a hold i fill my diaphram (stomach moves) fill my chest and then i start to pack (like sucking through a straw)

Is this right?

 

[Bill]

'As far as I know there's nothing physiologically similar between packing and the inducers of the dive response.'

Is it possible that the body has learned to use packing as a signal that a dive will follow. Psychologically similar, if you will, like a young child's bladder when the car starts to move.

 

[azapa]

Chris, as far as I was taught, there are 4 non-packed breathing phases:
- diaphragm
- chest
- clavicle (shoulders)
- throat up to nose (must be pinched)
I forget the relative volumes, but chest and diapgram are probably 80%, shoulders 15 and throat 5

BTW the throat is the weirdest one, and quite useless except of experiments: with the others filled, simultaneously look up (extending throat) and almost back, sucking in air. The funny thing is if you now look down, nose still pinched, you will compress the air space and your ears will pop. Sorry, abit OT.

If you are only using your diaphragm and chest (not shrugging your shoulders) you have plenty of space to pack air to.

 

[Mullins]

I just played around a bit with different breathing postures and 'phases', and I've found that, for me, there's actually no difference (volume-wise) between 1. a normal inhale; 2. one which starts with the diaphragm only; and 3. one which incorporates a shoulder shrug. Interesting...

 

[azapa]

hmm. i've just had a big cuban lunch, "ropa vieja" etc, and the thought of trying full holds makes me sick, but i'll try later. Dave, how do you know the volumes? do you have a spirometer, or do you just, like, know 'cause your pretty OK at freediving? I'd love to get my hands on a spirometer for a few days.

 

[B-J]

Bill: Interesting. Maybe my body has learned to recognize the signs (packing) before a breathhold. When I start to think about it... I`m guessing that 99% of my breathholds are with packing and that`s how it`s been for the last two years at least.
Maybe someone else can test with a HR-monitor their HR during a breathhold. Especially the first part and see if you HR drops allready during the "packingfase."

To be back on the title of this thread... Does anyone agree with me that it`s better to use your tongue (small muscle) and pack together with a normal inhale than to use all of those big muscles (f.ex shouldershrugs) in your upper body to get a FULL inhale.??

BTW I tested a spirometer in a course by Sebastian N. I went from 5,6l on a FULL inhale to 7,3l with packing

 

[Mullins]

My HR almost doubles when I pack - when I wore a HR monitor (which was only for a couple of dives) it went from 60 - 120bpm as I packed. Probably due to reduced stroke volume. When I dive it takes a long time for my HR to even drop back to normal resting rate.

Simon - a very unscientific test, i.e. taking a full breath in the 'normal' way then seeing if a change in posture etc allows me to inhale further. I have done it with a spiro in the past and the only thing that made a (slight) difference was the last shoulder shrug & head tilt. I think that might have been attributable to the fact that the last part in which you stretch your throat out is effectively one large packing movement. Fran now has a spiro for the courses we are going to run so I'll definitely play around with it and see if there is any merit to exotic breathing techniques.

 

[fflupo]

so why are you guys packing besides for the equalization?

i understand the more volume of air, but you burn more as well .. due higher HR or is it a personal thing to adjust the cost of dive to the mind game

what are the benefits?

 

[azapa]

well, you burn x O2 per second, more air = more O2 = more seconds.. there are many very good reasons not to pack too, gone over extensively in other threads

 

[Mullins]

I've found packing very useful for DYN and I think for STA, not that I've really done enough STA to tell the difference. Any extra O2 you burn because of the packing is more than offset by the extra O2 you take on board.

It's less effective for CWT, simply because of the extra buoyancy change you get from the extra gas volume (and of course there's the possibility it increases the chance of lung squeeze). But it is still beneficial in my case - up to a point of course, which I don't think I've reached.