Pneumatic pelagics?

[kees]

So far I have been shooting reef fish, and am happy to aim at 5 kg fish, but have shot some bigger ones with a Cyrano 970 or 110 & reel. I borrowed a 110 bandgun, and ( possibly because I'm not used to it) it felt really slow and cumbersome and it did not seem to have any power, range or accuracy advantages- so for this sort of fishing I have no doubts about my pneumatics. I actually just bought a 100 Airbalete which is hopefully ideal for this.

But recently a friend took me fishing for pelagics- Spanish Mackerel, 10-20 kg or more. My 110 had developed a leak so I borrowed his setup- 130 RA, 30 m floatline etc. This gun could not really 'track' a moving fish in my hands and having such a heavy and cumbersome setup was part of me feeling out of place in deep blue blooded water with sharks about.

So my thoughts were- can you reasonably use a 110 pneumatic to hunt this sort of fish? Everyone seems to claim that pneumatics outpower bandguns of the same size but looking at the 130 RA with its long shaft and my 110 pneumatic side-by-side was like seeing the difference between a Landcruiser and a Lexus.

Now I know that elephants have been shot with .22 LR and that it is the skill of the hunter that counts- still, there is such a thing as the tool for the job and I ask for advice and hopefully experience on this. My trawls trough the WWW have not been very useful in this respect.



thanks,

Kees

 

[foxfish]

You could improve the Airbalete for more power & a smoother shot, have a look at how Don modified his gun & ultimately fitted a dry barrel kit http://forums.deeperblue.com/pneumatic-spearguns/85998-airbalete-110-a.html

 

[kees]

Dear Foxfish,

Yes, but does Don reliably land 10-20 kg pelagics with it?

In a broader context- the only objective indices of power I have found on the net are on the Russian hydropneumatics, it simply looks like there is little published data on these matters. But in the end it is about shooting fish so if there are people who report that they regularly come home with large wahoos, mackies and tuna using a 100 airbalete, I am home and dry. Or if someone has discovered through trial and error that it takes a reinforced 1300 pneumatic, pumped up to 60 bar , loaded with a car winch & using explosive tips- I have also got an answer.

Kees

 

[slopshot]

I am not of the experiance of many of the others here but i have on regular basis shot and landed 45+ pound Cobia with a Cyrano 970 with wet barrel. Hope this helps.

 

[popgun pete]

Hunting pelagics brings with it the risk element of losing your gun unless you use a breakaway rig, or you severely disable the fish, or you stone it. To do the latter you need to be a good shot and close the distance to the target, or wait for the fish to swim closer to you before taking a more certain shot rather than hoping for the best and just letting fly with the shaft. Pneumatic guns are powerful, but usually have a shorter length shaft, so the momentum of the shaft crashing into the fish and hopefully busting bones is reduced by the lower shaft mass unless the shaft speed is very high when the shaft hits. In a pneumatic gun the loading effort can be broken up (with the partitioned reservoir "easy-loading" feature), but the final effort to latch is always the same regardless of the number of muzzle loading attempts, so high shaft speed is bought at the cost of muzzle loading against high pressure.

The hydropneumatic gun is essentially the same as a pneumatic, but is slightly less efficient energy-wise, however it can be loaded from the rear end using a lever operated pump (the hydropump) in the guns that are built around this feature (they are always ultra-high pressure guns). I have one of these guns, but I don't shoot pelagics with it (too short, plus I don't want to lose a very expensive gun as I don't have it rigged for breakaway work). Like the pneumatic the final effort to "latch" (the trigger valve operated hydropneumatic guns don't really latch as such) is still the same big effort, but you are leaning on a pump lever handle with mechanical advantage to do it, which makes it easier, plus you can take a rest between the pump lever strokes. Plus you are not risking being shot in the head as spear insertion is not the muzzle loading that you have to do with a pneumatic gun. Also the hydropneumatic gun's spear does not have to withstand muzzle loading induced bending, but this is only true for the lever operated guns, on the muzzle loaded hydropneumatic guns the situation is much the same as the pneumatic, particularly if they use a sear tooth to hold the spear in the gun. Additionally the hydropneumatic spear and gun can be long, much longer than a pneumatic. The downside is that these guns don't float unless fitted with a bulky buoyancy collar or stock, plus they are not off the shelf items.

A long pneumatic will do the same job, but could you load it at high pressure? The alternative would be to use a vacuum barrel system, but a long smooth continuous loading action on a very long pneumatic is a big ask as the last thing you want is any water getting into the inner barrel, unless in trivial amounts.

What really matters is the size and strength of the pelagic fish you are shooting, will you be able to hold it or will it tear the gun from your hands. If your gun is in-line float rigged then will it survive being pulled from the muzzle and handle as part of the float tether to the fish, or will it break at the gun's line attachment positions (some can be on the flimsy side, they are really for dangling the gun from a belt clip to free your hands while the gun is loaded and pointing muzzle down). When I have shot pelagics I always used a band gun as it had a longer spear and being a wooden gun I could repair it, provided I eventually got it back! Reel guns can work if you don't get spooled or the line ties up in tall kelp as the fish will immobilize itself running around in circles through it, but if it runs through broken and jagged reef on the bottom then it may cut you off on sharp edges. At least you then keep your gun. In-line rigged band guns can take a trip being towed down through the reef and emerge only with scratches and scrapes, but this treatment may be fatal for a pneumatic speargun built using the lightweight designs found in today's pneumatic guns, which is why they float.

So it is what happens after the shot connects that counts. Anything but a small fish is much stronger than a diver in the water and can easily take your gear if it has not been badly damaged, it is fighting for its life after all, so you need to weigh up what you can afford to risk losing, or hope your buddy can put another spear into it before it runs. Sometimes you just have to pass on a shot if you are not rigged for the situation and instead look for something more manageable and which is also good to eat, rather than a trophy fish.

 

[foxfish]

Pete has supplied a very good answer however if you are loading the gun on a boat, then you can use a dry barrel much easier than loading in the sea.

Dear Foxfish,

Yes, but does Don reliably land 10-20 kg pelagics with it?

Kees

Don shoots white bass in the 20-40kg range.

 

[kees]

Thanks!

Now that is a problem- Popgun Pete uses a bandgun for pelagics???? That is a strong vote! And I have unsuccessfully tried to get a hydropneumatic for exactly the purpose you do not use it for!

I am not too worried about damaging the gun- a good excuse to buy something else, and Im thinking of using a bungy and float but to also keep the reel- if only to find out how big a fish I can manage without a float.
Besides, it is the reef fish I target that dive for the nearest hole- but without reaching the end of the reel. The few pelagics that I have seen shot seem to avoid any reef but head off into the distance. There is no kelp in Shark Bay either.

Still, so far only 1 report on successfully pneumaticking pelagics ?

Kees

 

[foxfish]

I dont think there is any doubt that a multi band high mass band gun would do a better job if shooting open water pelagic is specifically what you want to do.
A mid handle four banded woody of around 1.4 mt would be my choice or perhaps a twin band roller gun.
I built a gun a few years back that was 1.2 mt twin 18 mm bands job, the owner has shoot lots of wahoo with it!
There is a vid somewhere on this site posted by Miles, it features a huge tuna being shot with a hydropneumatic gun.

 

[popgun pete]

Thanks!

Now that is a problem- Popgun Pete uses a bandgun for pelagics???? That is a strong vote! And I have unsuccessfully tried to get a hydropneumatic for exactly the purpose you do not use it for!

I am not too worried about damaging the gun- a good excuse to buy something else, and Im thinking of using a bungy and float but to also keep the reel- if only to find out how big a fish I can manage without a float.
Besides, it is the reef fish I target that dive for the nearest hole- but without reaching the end of the reel. The few pelagics that I have seen shot seem to avoid any reef but head off into the distance. There is no kelp in Shark Bay either.

Still, so far only 1 report on successfully pneumaticking pelagics ?

Kees

I think divers in the Mediterranean have used pneumatic guns on Tuna (big ones, but not monsters), you may have to search on Greek or Italian forums. I remember an article by a Greek guy who shot so many Tuna there was almost no room on their boat, it was in the IF&SN magazine some years ago. When he and his Dad got back to shore with his catch the authorities relieved him of all but two of them saying that there were too many fish there for one individual! Maybe a new rule that was just thought of by the officers concerned? The Tuna were attracted by dumping lots of sardines over the side and then the hunter going down to bag each one that swam into the gun's firing line.

I just had a quick look myself, check out the second story here: http://freedive.net/ibsrc/fish_frms/F_bft_at.htm

 

[Alphamic]

I recently acquired a 135 Asso with mamba kit and rigged with a breakaway system. I just dont know how Im going to load it but I will work it out. Eventually. I havent had a chance to use it yet.

The guy who previously owned the gun showed me video of him shooting large spaniards and wahoo with no problem. He also told me he has shot yellowfin tuna with it. The videos where clear. I couldnt believe the shaft speed!

I dont know if there is much difference between your 110 and a 135 in range and killing power. Maybe Pete can enlighten us. And by the way I think Ive joined the Dark Side. ha ha ha.

 

[popgun pete]

All things being equal (gun pressure, shooting line, type of tip used) a 135 gun will shoot further than a 110 gun, the question is whether you really need that increased shooting range or not. I would be more concerned about loading it as if a pneumatic gun is too long for you then spearfishing with it will not be that enjoyable. Your dives will be more about coping with the gun than thinking about the fish. Divers all come in different sizes, so not everyone is going to be able to use the same size guns, however if you and the original gun owner are around the same build and height then you should be OK. Just ask him for some advice as he must have been very proficient with it. Fortunately fish being curious creatures means that guns often don't have to use their maximum range, in which case the higher shaft speed out of a longer gun at the same shooting distance as a slightly shorter one will give more penetration as the shaft is moving earlier in its flight trajectory. Also the spear tip is that little bit closer when judging the distance between you and the fish with the longer gun unless you are estimating the distance to it from the tip of the gun, which means it must already be nearly lined up as you can see both of them at the same time (for a convergent line shot).

If you have never used a pneumatic gun before then it is worth getting some experience with a shorter model before progressing on to the longer versions, but that is for you to judge. This practice period would not take long, but you would then understand exactly what was involved and avoid any potential problems.

 

[jps]

I would be more concerned about loading it as if a pneumatic gun is too long for you then spearfishing with it will not be that enjoyable.

I agree with this, as i had a hell of a time getting used to loading my 110 before finally figuring out how to do it properly. Now i only have to think of "keep out of face" because it is very easy for the gun to slip under my chin while pushing in the final few cm.
It's been worth the effort of learning, though. I'm hooked on pneumatics now

 

[tromic]

I use Easy loader to load long, powerful the gun on high pressure: http://forums.deeperblue.com/pneumatic-spearguns/74889-air-gun-easy-loader-5.html#post881754
Its a piece of cake to load a gun but it takes some time, about a minute.

 

[Alphamic]

Thanks guys for your information.

Like Pete said, I think that the distance from the target is important but I dont have any experience with large fish to comment. I will try and obtain the video footage of the 135 shooting fish and try and post it.

As for loading, the previous owner of the gun was shorter and lighter than me. He used an extended loader and said it was all technique. Remains to be seen.

I have seen on you tube a guy using what looks like a metal pedal situated somewhere along the barrel that lowers the height of the muzzle to make loading easier.

Tromic I have seen your loader and looks very practical in calm waters. The problem I have is that the Pacific Ocean where Im situated is rarely calm enough to use this system. I might be wrong though and would like to hear from practical experiences.

Has anyone used these system. Please give some feedback.

This is turning out to be a good thread and maybe a good challenge for someone out there brave enough to target large pelagics with a pneumo.

 

[tromic]

If you can swim or dive in a water than its calm enough for the loader to be used.

 

[Gazz]

Thanks!

Now that is a problem- Popgun Pete uses a bandgun for pelagics???? That is a strong vote! And I have unsuccessfully tried to get a hydropneumatic for exactly the purpose you do not use it for!

Still, so far only 1 report on successfully pneumaticking pelagics ?

Kees

Hi Kees,

I used to use railguns for pelajics (1.2 and 1.3) but now i use a asso 115 with tovarich kit. This gun shoots faster, further then the railguns and is lighter with much less recoil, This gun kills at 6mtrs the railguns at 5. For reef i use the airbalete 110, but have used this gun to shoot pelagics to 8kgs as well. there is a u tube video of a aussie shooting dophinfish out at the fads with his cyrano 110.

If you are shooting pelagics 10kgs + use at least 1.8m mono and have a solid reel or float line.

I dont think the gun is the problem if you have the range and punch (5mtrs is good, pelajics are normally stupid and will often come in for a look), but the rigging needs to be able to handle big fish.

 

[benjamin2130]

hi,i use sten medi 70,and i kill pelagics 10 kgs,is small gun but i believe you can get a fish 20kgs,my next step mares supersten 100.