Poll: AIDA Stepanek Decision

[gulfstreamblues]

Let's see how the Deeperblue community would have voted, had they been afforded the opportunity to vote along with AIDA officials about Martin's 83 CNF dive:

1) YES in full. Mr. Stepanek gets a new world record of 83m CNF. A signal violation (lack of tag) by Mr. Stepanek is accepted due to special circumstances.

2) YES, but with ONE point subtracted due to special circumstances concerning signal violation. This equals Mr. Stepanek's attempt with Mr. William Trubridge's (NZL) current world record of 82m. The two athletes share the world record.

3) NO, Mr. Stepanek's attempt is disqualified for signal violation.

 

[Evita]

No sorry, there can be no world record with penalty points (even if it is just one)

 

[Kars]

I think I see a trend develloping.

Perhabs the A.I.D.A. board should double check their communication lines with the caring A.I.D.A. members?

 

[Bill]

'there can be no world record with penalty points'

After a problem in S. America wasn't there a decision that the judges at the scene had the final say as to record or no record?

 

[Evita]

The rules are quite clear, and I personally agree with them as they are now: There can be no record with penalty points. That's how it is for national records and I don't see why it should be more lax with world records. Plus what you are suggesting sounds too subjective to me. It puts an enormous pressure on the individual judges on the spot that a) is not fair, b) puts their credibility at risk and c) is not fair to the current record holder or other athletes going for the same record, who do so under different circumstances with different judges.

But you could be right about the decision and in that case I am happy that the rules are under revision at the moment, because if judges in praxis are sidestepping the rules, and it is commonly agreed that they can do so, then the rules must be changed. First of all so we all have the same reference (I for one have not heard about the decision you are referring to) and secondly so that records are not judged by the judges, but by the rules.

It would be fine by me if we loose the tag requirement, especially in CNF, but then it should be changed in the rules.

 

[cebaztian]

Re: Poll: AIDA Stepanek Decision - damage control

Some of you seem to miss a few points.

- There was a time where WR were done with NO TAG.
(in 2003 I saw Stig S "spinn the plate" in WR attempt)
- Rules has changed over and over nearly every year.
- The Stepanek case is a "special circumstance" - he did not on purpose violate a rule. He asked the judges about the current rules and none (judges, athletes or organizer) bothered to read all the rule documents and find out the details.
- And yes according to the rules judges decision are FINAL.

Rules are perfect - humans are faltering. We dive in water not in paragraphs.

Question is - how to get out of this dilemma with the least amount of Damage to any part. Wills rights, Stepaneks rights, future WR holders rights. Do the equation.

Sebastian


PS. Kars - it is not a trend developing - it is a constant state.

 

[Evita]

Most athletes do not purposefully violate the rules - does that make their violation a "special circumstance" too? Whoah, just imagine the volume of cases...

Clear rules and rulings by them save on paper work and discussions - subjective rulings create endless discussions and uncertainty (this case in point).

The rules are not perfect and so it is not strange that we often find reason to improve them. To me it doesn't matter if they change every year as long as everyone has the same access to them and they count for everyone. How long does it take to find AIDA International, go to the documents section and download the current rules?

As for decisions made somewhere else and some time ago, that are not in the rules: I am a new freediver and I shouldn't have to know that. The current rules should be all I need to know, not "in 2001 we did this" or "in south america we decided that". If it's not in the current rules, it's not my concern as an athlete who is competing for a record.

If, as you say, in the Stepanek case no one bothered about the rules - huge problem... and an indication that the rules need to be improved, so top athletes and judges will respect them.

 

[Ondro]

I am missing the fourth choice - accept the record and change the rules ASAP.

 

[trux]

That falls under the first case. Modifying the rules won't change anything retroactively, so it is in fact irrelevant to the current decision.

 

[osusim]

Different rules means different disciplines (C) From this year AIDA Judges course.
Should we introduce a new discipline like CNFNT (no fins, no tag) or DNFWP (no fins, with pulling)? :t

 

[Kars]

Sorry Sebastian I cannot agree with the decision AIDA has made.

This decision IS political, it has NOTHING to do with honouring the regulations.

Any political 'solution' is subject to favourism.

I proposed a solution, but just like in all politics everbody is guilty and nobody is held accounteble. How typical

I'm sure Will would find it utterly frustrating to have trained and practiced so long to do the 82 with tag, and see his record taken this way. I'm sure Will would have done a deeper dive without the tag.

Like Osusim suggest, the judges merly validated a NEW discipline's record.

I'm pissed off by the corruption.

I cannot believe AIDA's boardmembers did not know, or could know, that their 'solution' would be that unpopular.

I hope that the AIDA board people take this poll numbers 92% AGAINST the AIDA's decision VERY serious and act upon it.


Courage, courage, courage and water,

Kars

 

[CEngelbrecht]

This decision IS political, it has NOTHING to do with honouring the regulations.

Dammit, the decision was about protecting the performance. Give us a BREAK!

I cannot believe AIDA's boardmembers did not know, or could know, that their 'solution' would be that unpopular.

WHO THE HELL SAYS WE DIDN'T???

Any political 'solution' is subject to favourism.
I'm pissed off by the corruption.

I don't believe this. What the hell happened in Holland that got you this paranoid???

I proposed a solution, but just like in all politics everbody is guilty and nobody is held accounteble. How typical

Maybe ... somebody ... just ... didn't agree with that particular proposal! Have you considered that?

I'm sure Will would find it utterly frustrating to have trained and practiced so long to do the 82 with tag, and see his record taken this way. I'm sure Will would have done a deeper dive without the tag.

What about Stepanek's training and practise? Null his dive, and people would wine and moan about AIDA favouring Trubridge! Then that's wrong!


Look, all Will gotta do is next time make 84, grap the tag, swim up, smack it down by the feet of the judge and go "THERE, you rotten sonuva..."

 

[cebaztian]

No Kars this is not corruption (on the topic of Aida and corruption we can start another thread

And you are a bit agitated - you dont seem to know my standpoint in this case. You just react with wrath built on things not related to this case.

This is a DC decision. By DC members who no one realy knows how they got to sit there (please inform us - we are interested). I think the board picked some people some years back (?) And as I said before my belief is that these people are mostly chosen to handle doping cases. How many of the DC people has read the rules - your guess is a good as mine.

I think the board/assembly should change the composition of the DC because there will be more cases in the future that need more hands on experience. Chris is an example of a DC member who stays in touch with the freedivers and argues for his opinions (honor to him) even though he loses his temper ;-). But there is a need for more judges/organizers/ex-competitors.

Fact is: Aida has made the judges very powerful. Their decision is final and it should be enough for an athlete (Stepanek asked in his role as an athlete) to ask them about the rules (thats why they get flight,food and accomodation), they are the expert on the rules). They f***ed up and neither Will nor Stepanek should suffer is my standpoint.

Sebastian
Aidamember

 

[Kars]

Yes Sebastian you bet I am agitaded and angry. And indeed not only because of this organisation or this particular incident. It is NATURAL being upset about injustice and corruption. Being silent means consenting. It's VITAL to stand up for our fellow individuals.

Will made it VERY clear, there ARE rules involving faulty jury calls. AIDA Chooses to ignore it's own rules. To me that IS corruption.

In my view they should hold the jury involved accountable.

Thanks for pointing out another unknown 'shady' history of the formation of the DC.

I got your point you want to have a solution with the least damage and hurt for everyone. <it appears to be the DC point of view too>
And I don't find it appealing because Will and the all AIDA members are being robbed of their rights. This for something two juries have done, BECAUSE a committy did not have the courage to follow the organisation's own rules.

To prevent future jury problems I suggest AIDA has a small resposibility and accoutebility devision chart, rule.

Since AIDA is low on funds and members, what are the numbers?, doesn't have a major finacial sponsors, The cost are being relayed to two parties, the Athlete and the Jury involved. With this being clear, any athlete and jury know what they are getting into.

But hey we can make pages of rules, but with no people obeying them what's the use?

AIDA was set up to standardise the compeditive freediving, 8 disciplines were charted up so that every member would have the certainty that his, her record is an effort equal in dificulty and WITHIN the rules of the game called 'Compeditive Freediving'.

This presedent would open up a door to more malicious practices, bribing or pressuring a jury for instance.

Love, Courage and water,

Kars

 

[Bill]

I think that I would have voted for #2 (n.b. attempted pun). It sort of sounded right when Sebastian said it. It helps and hurts 2 of the 3 athletes involved without affecting #3. A compromise.
Delaying the decision until the third athlete speaks, probably at DDD or the World's, sounds promising but causes other problems.
My 2 cents...

 

[Kars]

As divers get closer to more barriers I expect that the record's numbers will be closer grouped. Small variations in rules will make big differences. To me it seems vital to be very clear on the rules. At most change them only ONCE a year at a predictable regular time. Everyone has an intrest in the stability the rules provide. Now that trust has been erazed by the DC members.

Kars

 

[Fondueset]

Of course now Martin will have to do this with a tag - just to show he can and quiet all this down. Personally I think it is possible to drop the tag, or to keep it. The record can of course be confirmed by video - so we don't really NEED a tag, but the symbolism is nice - I mean there is really only one way you can come up with the tag in your hand. So you go down into the brave mystery, and bring something back with you - a metaphor for the 'Hero's Journey'.

In this case, and again everyone has their own need to express whatever, I heartily congratulate Martin and express my confidence that AIDA, which is, in essence, an organization consisting of freedivers - not experienced bureaucrats who spend their time tracing out the political ramifications of every word - will learn from this experience and be all the better.