pool training advice sought

[HJ]

Hello All... I'm a very infrequent poster (only once!), but I have a question. Not sure into which sub-forum this goes, so I'm just posting it here.

Quick intro: I'm a life-long swimmer/water-person (pool & rough-water swimming, triathlons, etc.) who wants to get more into freediving. I've done it off and on (more off), and I've got a Bahamas trip coming up in April (recreational freediving, dolphin swimming). I've got a little under 3 months and would like to be as prepared (physically and mentally) as I can. Note that I can only do pool or dryland training between now and then. My goal is to increase underwater efficiency of effort in order to maximize my underwater experience on the trip (but without increasing risk of SWB in pool now, or in open water later). Any advice for me?

Currently, I'm doing my regular swimming workouts (25m indoor pool currently; 50m outdoor in Spring-Fall, but won't have access until after this trip) and have started adding underwater work (full-body dolphin kick with fins). Also practicing descents and ear clearing but it's only about 10' to the deep end. I share the pool (lane lines) with other swimmers but can frequently get a lane to myself; or at most split the lane with one other.

My initial thought is to do moderate "kick for distance" repeats (allowing breath to recover), letting the training effect gradually increase my distance and comfort and also build my fin-kicking strength/efficiency. Any other ideas?

SAFETY NOTE: I am very aware of the danger of Shallow Water Blackout. Have done "kick for distance" pool work over the past years and have tried to be careful up to now: not hyperventilating, not focusing on a goal (coming up when it's time to come up), and using minimal muscle effort. So far so good, but I don't want to start doing anything stupid now.

Thanks for any feedback!

Harald

 

[monkeyhatfork]

you can black out in the pool, but not really swb which has more to do with ascending from depth, if you check the training section I think there are a few pool exercises, and if you search I believe thier was a hole thread devoted to pool training, just make shure you arent pushing your abilities unless you have someone with you. You can also try tolerance tables, but there is varied opinion as to thier effectiveness, I find them useful for establishing mental ability and consistancy in breathholding

 

[Evita]

You can also try tolerance tables, but there is varied opinion as to thier effectiveness, I find them useful for establishing mental ability and consistancy in breathholding

I second that. The tables will build up your confidence and experience, make you familiar with your symptoms and signals at different stages of the breath-hold. Dry tables allow you to go safely closer to the edge and become aware of your warning signals, since they can differ from person to person.

However, it is crucial that you don't aim too high in the tables, the point is to get through all the breathholds in a series to build you up and make you know that you can do this when you want to. You can fail a breathhold on a bad day, but if it's more than that they become counterproductive mentally. You seem to have a safe and healthy attitude towards your training, so you'll work it out.

 

[HJ]

Thanks for replies. I found the "How to Start Freediving" message and responses (excellent!) and read it all. Just a couple of quick followups here:

SWB: We just have a semantic difference (ascent and pool blackouts). Swimmers and swimming coaches refer to pool blackouts as Shallow Water Blackouts. So I use the terms interchangeably since the result is the same. But I see what you mean.

TABLES: What's the difference between CO2 and O2 Tables (in terms of result)? Is one preferable (for my goal) over the other or are both valuable? Do you find that dryland breath-hold improvements carry over to in-water times?

POOL TRAINING: Found a few mentions. Like:

< When training for CO2 tolerance, it is usually safer doing shorter breath-holds or distances and progressively reducing the rest times. In this way you assure rising CO2, but still avoid hypoxia. So for example you can make 25m laps, starting with 20 breath cycles between them, decreasing it by one each lap and ending with just one or two inhales between them (you can repeat the minimal breath-up more times then). Still, doing it alone is to be avoided. >

A good pattern for me since I'm in a 25m pool. In my case, doing it alone is unavoidable. I do alert the lifeguard but I am aware of the limitations there. All I can do is to be extremely conservative and always stay within comfortable limits. I'm used to Hypoxic training in swimming.

Thanks again for continuing feedback.

Harald

 

[monkeyhatfork]

In an Ideal situation where you have a buddy to train with daily and can push yourself regularly in water, that would be better than the tables I think, dry tables allow you to push yourself in relative safety. there is much argument as to whether or not it actually builds any real physical tolerance, but I think it does build on the mental disciplin and teaches you to reach breathold goals consistanlty rather than a sporadic pb and in doing so I do see a translation when in water. I do a table every morning either o2 or co2 and rotate, best not to do more than one a day. You can find automated programs online where the tables are set up for you, I use the PFI one but you need permision to use that one. check this site ImpulseAdventure - Digital Photography, Weight Training, Freediving, Travel they have a link to a similar one. If your in water without a buddy, best to stay within known ability and work on form/technique and use the dry stuff to push forward.

 

[HJ]

Thanks monkeyhatfork. I'll try the tables and see how it goes. Because my pool schedule is totaly erratic, finding a buddy is out, so I'll do as your suggesting in the water, playing it safe.

And since we're talking about form/technique, and you seem to be an expert, can I ask a question? ... I've watched several online videos of dynamic pool with fins in action. I"ve actually been doing this for years without knowing what it was called. Any subtle technique advice? Do you start the undulation at the head vs. at the fingers? Do you glide or stay with constant motion? Do you put emphasis on down or up or neither? Do you keep the kick arc tight (shallow)? Stuff like that. Appreciate it. -- Harald

 

[Mullins]

I’m not a fin-swimmer, but my 2c:

- Arms/head/shoulders shouldn’t move up or down at all. Undulation should start at about the chest. You need a fairly flexible back to do this, but monofinning itself is a good way of stretching.
- Glide vs constant motion is up to you, there doesn’t seem to be a definitive answer on that one. Gliding makes you slower but reduces the load on your legs. If you’re training for constant weight (open water) diving a constant flowing kick is probably best.
- Emphasis has to be on the down stroke because few people can generate much force on the up-stroke, but try to get up/down strokes as symmetrical as possible. This is where you need a flexible back and angled monofin. Pointing your toes on the up-stroke should help. Asymmetrical kicks tend to be very ‘leggy’ and create more drag.
- Although you need to be relaxed, don’t let the action go too ‘loose’ at your hips or knees. Make sure the energy you put into flexing your back is transferred directly to the blade. You should be able to feel this as your abs will load up with pressure as the blade flexes if you get it right. If they don’t, you’re probably bending your knees too much.

 

[HJ]

Hey, thanks Mullins.
-- I'm not a fin-swimmer either, but I'm swimming with fins! ;-) You're probably referring to the competitive sport of fin swimming, I guess. Never tried it, but who knows?
-- starting the undulation at the chest is a good goal. I'll try it on my next pool visit.
-- I've never actually tried to glide much (only heard about it) but I'll try it now.
-- up/down stroke: yeah, I know "up" is tough because of weaker hamstrings, but I'll try to keep it even and will try your tips. (FYI, I'm using primarily bi-fins. I have a prototype lunate mono, and will bring to pool to try, but not sure I can get it to my boat trip; it's pretty big. But they may have normal monos on the boat)
-- loose hips & knees: good point. I think I'm pretty "tight" in that respect, but I'll be conscious of it next workout.
Overall, excellent observations and tips. I've got my workout notes! Thanks again.

One more Question (for anyone): As a younger swimmer, I used to do "standing kick" drills. Basically, get in pool's deep end, put your hands over your head, and kick your ass off for as long as possible. For fun, we'd start as a group and see who was the last person "standing". Of course, that was without fins. I wonder if this could work WITH fins? Anyone tried it?

Thanks all! -- Harald

 

[Gwaihir]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wqq_0FyuIA]YouTube - Elisabeth Kristoffersen 50m DYN Apnea technique[/ame]

 

[monkeyhatfork]

Harald- listen to Mullins he's the record holder, if you want more examples of glide look on youtube for Dave Mullins Dynamic record dive and if you want to do more of a constant movement check out the Peter Pederson 200m Dynamic video----I'm not an expert just really obsessed---also you seem to have a stong swimming background have you looked in to no-fins dive techniques, might be a natural transition

 

[Gwaihir]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezr7ezaUb2M]YouTube - Dave Mullins 244m DYN[/ame]

 

[Mullins]

Eek - don't copy that one, I'm bending my legs heaps in that vid...

 

[Apnea Inked]

Any sort of pool training even the most conservative should not be done alone. It is very easy to push your limits without realising it. You look up and your nearly at the wall so keep going. If your doing a lot of swimming underwater any life gard will take much longer to realise you have a problem.
Tolerance tables are a good way to go but I would not advise doing anything other than swimming without someone in there with you who knows what your exactly what your doing.

 

[sciencemike]

I will start by saying i am definitely no expert at free diving. The only reason i am even commenting is because our backgrounds are so very similar. Im an olympic/ 1/2 iron man distance triathlete, also open water swimmer. I mostly train for freediving in a 25 yard pool. I began doing pool training at the end of summer when the ocean began getting hard to go in. I work on relaxing underwater, and fin technique. The relaxation part is where i had picked up my biggest gains. I can now easily double my initial dynamics. But until recently i had slow gains in the pool, only about 3-5 feet per week or so. Until i realized where i was coming from athletically. I tend to train long and slow - an extended base 1 or prep training regimen. But i found only a few weeks ago that due to the long distances i never go anaerobic in my training. I began to phase in 1 mile anaerobic sessions at the end of my runs, and it has given me massive improvements underwater. I simply run for 6 miles normal pace, then do 1 mile so fast im breathing like im hyperventilating, but not on purpose. This will give you 5 minutes of just borderline anaerobic time to help your body acclimate to high co2 and low o2. But again, i am no expert and this may be bad for you. Its just what has worked for me. If this is bad advice please delete this post or tell me so i can.

 

[Mullins]

I think you're right, sprinting/anaerobic work is great for freediving

 

[HJ]

Harald- listen to Mullins he's the record holder, if you want more examples of glide look on youtube for Dave Mullins Dynamic record dive and if you want to do more of a constant movement check out the Peter Pederson 200m Dynamic video----I'm not an expert just really obsessed---also you seem to have a stong swimming background have you looked in to no-fins dive techniques, might be a natural transition

Appreciate the comments. No-fins is something to think about (especially with my broad feet!, but that's in the future.

Mullins is Da Man! I watched the videos closely (thanks Gwaihir!). Clear difference in technique among Mullins, Pederson, and Kristofferson. Mullins has much less movement in the upper torso. I tried it today; had to concentrate and actually found being "looser" seemed better than "tighter". But I'm just starting. Will give it time. Also tried some gliding... pretty neat. Bending legs too much, Dave? I'll forgive you! ;-)

BTW, I tried my "standing kicks" in the deep end. Works fine, except I didn't want to raise my hands over my head much because I didn't want to put any "he needs help" worries into their heads. The pool is very busy.

Harald

 

[HJ]

Any sort of pool training even the most conservative should not be done alone. It is very easy to push your limits without realising it. You look up and your nearly at the wall so keep going. If your doing a lot of swimming underwater any life gard will take much longer to realise you have a problem.
Tolerance tables are a good way to go but I would not advise doing anything other than swimming without someone in there with you who knows what your exactly what your doing.

You make a good point, but it's just not practical for me to train with anyone. I go nowhere near my limits, and I've got 50 years of swim training in my wake. Not boasting, just stating the reality of my situation. Within that context, I'm trying to SLOWLY and SAFELY improve my U/W technique and efficiency.

Appreciate continued suggestions.

Harald

 

[Kman]

Hi Harald,

Here are the tips freely given to me when beginning freediving. You may gain some value from them. Sorry if I am repeating what others have said before me.

a) Always dive with a spotter or in-pool buddy,
b) never exceed 50m in training especially when training alone (as in pool staff spotting you)
c) Technique training is paramount over distance, distance will come in time as technique improves
d) When training technique, never ever swim more than a length so you can analyze it properly.

To break it down a little (ohh hell, he does go on!)

a) your spotter should be close to you at all times and watching for those pesky little children that want to dive into every lane that has a swimmer in it as well as keeping a close eye on you for signs or distress etc. Life Guards can not be relied on as they are always looking out for "everyone" therefore can not be expected to recognize any signs that you are in trouble. Also, sometimes in certain pools reflections do not allow them to see you properly too which means that you might be in blind spots. I was lucky enough to train in a pool where they assigned me a life guard when training alone, so it may pay to talk nicely to (and get to know) the pool supivisor.

b) 50m is quite enough to train to when you are starting out (IF you can comfortably do 50m). Quantity will assist with your breath hold and also you can work on Quality of the swim.

c) Reinforces the above point. If you can get someone to video you in the water, then you can compare to the top freedivers and try and mimic their styles. You also need to experiment as to what works for you. You maybe not as flexable in the back which means that you might be better with a single kick then glide or you might be better with a constant kick. There is no right or wrong way, its just got to feel right for you. I also use a similar style to Dave Mullins with the double kick then glide, but my speed through the water is alot faster than Dave. My kick originates more from my legs than his does, but its what works for me.

D) is already covered I think.

I hope that helps. (sorry for it being so long)

Good luck and above all... be safe!

 

[azapa]

hey harald, as you can tell this sport produces a lot of fanatics! my two cents:

if you want to enjoy an ocean trip, train in the ocean beforehand. There is nothing like the ocean, and being there is the only way to get comfortable. In my case, I am pathetic in pools, (like, THE worst in my club) but am great in the ocean (like, almost the best in my club). I only go to the pool to be sociable.

For example: pool, I can only just manage 67M (two and a half lengths of a 25M pool) dynamic. But, i can do a 4:40 static. Ocean: I can dive to -30M with 1:30 to 1:45 dive times, without even leg burn or urgency to breath. The two don't add up, BUT I do spend a lot of time in the ocean. The ocean is full of new sensations, and my best dives are the relaxed ones when I am enjoying those feelings. I have seen great pool guys literally fall apart when asked to freedive to the bottom (say at -10M) when the bottom is not visible from the surface.

Sorry to ramble, but, to be good in the ocean, get in there!

 

[HJ]

hey harald, as you can tell this sport produces a lot of fanatics!

Boy, does it. You people are HARD CORE! Love it.

if you want to enjoy an ocean trip, train in the ocean beforehand. There is nothing like the ocean, and being there is the only way to get comfortable. In my case, I am pathetic in pools, (like, THE worst in my club) but am great in the ocean (like, almost the best in my club). I only go to the pool to be sociable. [...] I have seen great pool guys literally fall apart when asked to freedive to the bottom (say at -10M) when the bottom is not visible from the surface.

Very interesting. I know this sounds strange but I'm exactly like you but also the reverse. The reverse in that I'm currently landlocked, and one reason I'm making this Bahamas trip is to get back in the ocean! The same in that I've got years of ocean experience and feel most comfortable there. I'm doing the pool thing because I have no other options right now. In swimming (the regular kind), there were guys who could always beat me in pool races, but in the ocean I kicked their butts. Why? I think it's because I was more comfortable in open water -- the rougher, the better, and I guess they weren't. Anyway, I love the ocean and glad you do, too. Can't wait to get back in it.