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Propelling (splitfin) monofin?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

trux

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Dec 9, 2005
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Few years ago a friend of mine showed me his new Scuba Pro Twinfins (splitfins/propeller fins). I was laughing at them, considering it just another stupid gadget the industry use to create for no other reason than ripping off people of more money. Well, I ignored it then during couple of days, because it was a scuba diving trip and I did not care about it. But then we went for some snorkeling/freediving and had to swim about 300m from the beach to the riff. Although I am a better swimmer than he, and I swam as fast as I could, completely exhausted, he was simply far ahead without any apparent effort. I then tried the splitfins too, and although I did not like their complete softness and no resistance, they were indeed much more efficient than mine (old semi-long rubber freediving fins).

Since then, I am just looking up the web and catalogues, and waiting for freediving splitfins, but it does not look like the idea interests any manufacturer.

I also wonder (whatever paradoxical it may sound) if someone already experimented with the propeller splitfin principle at monofins. I know that monofins are often hand made or made in small series, so it could be actually easier to experiment with them. I do not see any reason why the propelling wouldn't work at monofins, when it apparently works so well at regular stereo fins.

Anyone heard about such attempts?
Thanks,
trux
 
Hi, an interesting post. We never loose the perspectives of different designs, inclusive if are used by bottlenaut :ko (Scuba divers). The only one fiber fin with this design that i know is this one for lifesaving:

http://www.leaderfins.com/cgi-bin/form.cgi/64eng?id=26&tm=1134208626

id26pic1.jpg
 
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Thanks, it looks like quite a powerful fin, although I really meant a monofin, not bi-fins like this one. This one looks in design quite like your UW-rugby fins, and I wonder how users/testers feel the difference. I suspect that for rugby the steering and acceleration may be worse, although for long runs like in life saving I imagine it can be indeed quite useful if the propeller effect works well with the fin.

I also wonder if you experimented with the propeller design when developing this fin. By own experience I know that it is not simply just the slit in the middle that makes the wonder: after the experience with the Twinfins of my friend, I was looking for some propeller fin that I could use for freediving - longer full foot fin, and I bought a pair, but was completely disappointed. I did not have at all the lightness and speed of the Twinfin I tried. It was a very mediocre fin and I do not use it much anymore. I am thinking about testing the Atomic Aquatic full-feet SplitFin, but of course, I'd prefer buying something that was already designed for freedivers or apnoea. Both monofin and bi-fins would be interesting.

I think that the problem of many splitfins on the market is that they are simply ordinary fins cut in the middle, unlike the ScubaPro Twinfins or Atomic Aquatics SpliFins (and some others), that were specially designed and optimized for this purpose - the blade is reinforced on the outside edges, and the stiffness decreases from outside to the inside split, enabling so much more efficient propeller effect, than when it is just a simple blade cut in two halfs.

Also, good splitfins that perform well in tests have often more complicated profile with channels to lead the water and reducing turbulences. At least it is what the manufacturers claim. Well, it is possible that it is just a gadget and an advertising trick to make it appear more technologically advanced than competing products, but having seen myself the difference in performance at different models, I tend to believe it indeed has some effect.

I just hope that some manufacturers will put soon more effort into testing this principle for long freediving fins and monofins. I am pretty sure it can considerably decrease the oxygen consumption and improve the performance at dynamic apnoea. Personally, using common sense (that may be wrong, though), I'd tell the splitfin effect would work much better at large monofins than at long narrow freediving fins.

Frankly told, I always wondered why performance and competition fins (mono a stereo) almost always use just plain flat blades without any profiling, rather resembling plywood boards fixed to the feet than any fins you can find at animals in the nature. Natural fins have always variable stiffness that decreases from the root to the end of the fin, and from outside to inside (like at the good splifins), or vice versa (i.e. at some sea mammals) - producing kind of an inverse effect of the splitfin. I have yet to see an animal with so stupid shape and rigidity of fin like we use to see especially at monofins. Even whales' fin that comes the closest to the shape of a monofin, is much more complex in flexibility and shape. If no fish has a fin with straight edge, perfectly flat blade with pretty constant rigidity along the length, it makes me feel it may not be the ideal design for man either.

Well, I hope and believe that we'll see much more efficient freediving and competition fins in near future.

Thanks,
trux
 
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trux,
because of surface tension freediving fins or long fins are inefficient on the surface btw for swimming. But for deep diving.
About splitfins ... exotic fins.
There is limit in perfect design fin btw fins ... and normal good monofin is close to it ...
 
£íáµ said:
There is limit in perfect design fin btw fins ... and normal good monofin is close to it ...
Thanks, Adam, for your post. Are there any scientific data confirming your claim, or should I just consider it a personal opinion? I am aware that today, you do not have other choice in performance fin swimming and freediving than plain monofins; however I have hard time believing it is the ideal design and the last word of the technology progress.

As I explained, I was myself extremely sceptical about the splitfins, but was surprised by their efficiency both on surface and under water. The experience of others and many comparative tests confirm the design advantages.

Of course, all those splitfins were not built for performance swimming or freediving, so you are certainly right that monofins would still easily beat them. I'd still love much more experiments, tests, computer simulations, scientific research,... in this field before I accept the current monofin design is the final solution having no chance to get better. Unfortunately, I have the feeling there are much more funds available for the research in leisure snorkelling and bottle diving than for research in freediving and competition apnoea.

BTW, the monofin in your avatar looks exactly like what we are speaking here about - split-monofin :) Did you manipulate the picture just to make me happy, or does such monofin exist?
 
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No, it isnt a scientific research, it is just my opinion :duh . I'm studing areo-space technik, and after reading current subject and bionic books i think there is a perfect mix of equipment ... not only perfect monofin or fins
there isnt only front resistance - hydrodynamic shape impotant...
The split fins produces turbulenses in the middle of the blade which isnt nessesary.

I think it is old Skat monofin ... "Skat Wing" from Novosibirsk or Tomsk i dont know anymore, but its Skat wing. No it isnt splited, it has a rubber rail in the middle of the blade i think ... or i photoshoped .. its 2 years ago .. :D
 
£íáµ said:
The split fins produces turbulenses in the middle of the blade which isnt nessesary.
That's exact. And that also looks like that it is what makes them so efficient. Plain fins produce turbulences on the blade edge, the splifins produce turbulences purposely in the middle - in fact the inventors and patent holders call these turbulences the "propeller effect". That's why splitfins are often called "propelling fins". As an expert in aerospace you may be interested in reading a more detailed explanation of the propeller effect, and in looking at the hydrodynamic tests that the developers performed. Unfortunately, I did not keep links to the articles, but I think you will not have big problems to google them out.
 
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Thanks for the tip. i heard about it before, but didnt keept attention on it.
I still beliefe in nature and bionic ... :)
To me it looks like split fins have very turbulent flow. Monos have it too, but mostly on tips of the blade and less inductive resistance.

Split fins is a wrong name ... Wing fins fit more ... because they work like two separate wings.
 
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£íáµ said:
I still beliefe in nature and bionic ... :)
Yes, I am with you. And (aside from my personal experience that can be subjective) just because I believe in nature, I belive also in the splitfin design - you can find it in the nature much more frequently than a completly stright edge as at the current monofins.


£íáµ said:
To me it looks like split fins have very turbulent flow.
I think that this very much depends on the specific fin. I am sure that most of the manufacturers producing cheap fins by simply copying the idea and cutting the blade in two, indeed produce fins with a lot of turbulences that are not efficient at all, and in fact worse than plain fins. As I explained, I experienced it with the second pair I tested too. Only those companies who made sufficient hydrodynamic tests a tweaked the design accordingly, managed to get really amazing results.

So yes, I agree - the simple split without further design changes can produce a lot of turbulences and more hinder than help the performance. Only well designed and tested propeller (split) fin can be really efficient.


£íáµ said:
Split fins is a wrong name ... Wing fins fit more ... because they work like two separate wings.
Actually, SplitFin, TwinFin or "propeller fin" are the correct names, and AFAIK they are registered, patented, copyrighted, trademarked, and who knows what more :) I do not find "wing fins" the right name - the two "wings" are not independent at all. It is very important that during the kick, the blades fold and form correctly to create the propeller effect. It if it were just two independent wings that move in the water without creating the effect chanelling the water through the big central turbulence, I doubt anyone would ever care about using them.

The following picture from atomicaquatics.com explains the effect probably better than the words. There were better pictures, analysis, and explanation in the patent whitepaper, but I did not manage to locate it again right now.

Waterflow400x.jpg
 
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A quick note from a non technik: If you look at most cetaceans (whales & dolphins), they have a slightly different "downkick" and "upkick". Also, they do not have a split fin, but do have a distinct shape Which controls water flow over the fin.

I own a pair of Force Fin (adjustables) http://forcefin.com/ , which claim to mimic this mechanisn when underwater, and use "vortex" bumps on the "upkick" side of the fin. I have no empirical evidence, but can tell you that I leave split fin users behind, using less effort, and consume less air when on SCUBA; where before I could keep up, but consumed more air than my split fin dive buddies. They seem to make horrible freedive hunting fins though, they are very inefficient on the surface, requiring a modified kick that leaves me puffing w/ an accelerated heart rate (no good for breath hold!)

http://forcefin.com/FF_PAGES/FF_wisewords/testimonials/catalina_mead.htm
 
Interesting discussion. I understand the split fin concept and it does seem as if it should work in the right circumstances. However, quite a few members of these forums have tried split fins and, if I remember right, the verdit has been universally negative in comparison to long fins. Several different brands were tried. I think somebody tried the scubapro variety.
Trux, have you tried these in comparison to a modern plastic blade longfin??

Connor
 
cdavis said:
However, quite a few members of these forums have tried split fins and, if I remember right, the verdit has been universally negative in comparison to long fins. Several different brands were tried.
Yes, of course, that's like comparing apples and oranges. And it is exactly the problem I addressed at the top: there is currently no real competition freediving propeller fin (bi or mono) on the market. All what you find are mostly scuba fins or surface swimming fins. Even those so-called freediving fins with split design from ForceFin are nothing even close to what a freediver would really use. They appear to be designed for hobby and leisure snorkelling (too short).

So if you want to compare long blade freediving fins or a competition monofin with a propeller fin, you first have to find one that was designed with the same purpose on mind. And as far as I investigated, there does not exist yet anything even remotely close to a competition freediving propeller bi or mono fin.

Of course, I am open to other designs like the one of ForceFin (mentioned by Lockedin), and would love to test such ''devices" as long as they are really designed for freedivers and not for snorkellers or scuba.


cdavis said:
Trux, have you tried these in comparison to a modern plastic blade longfin??
Not on the same day. I have long Beuchat Competition fins, and of course, I'd be very surprised if they were slower, but I did not have them there, so could not perform a comparative test.
 
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Ah, now I understand. Thanks.

There have been several comments about force fins in various threads. You should be able to find them using the search function.

Connor
 
cdavis said:
There have been several comments about force fins in various threads.
Yes, thanks, in fact I already saw at least some of them. Generally, I'd tell it looks like there are many new different principles in the hydro-propulsion area - not only split fins, and those 'funny' ForceFins, but also such exotic devices like the Aqueon or the Freedom Fins. Some of them may be too unpractical, others may prove unusable for competition freediving, but I would be really surprised if the freediving community does not profit from the apparent boom of research and developemnt in this area. Unfortunately, it looks like many of the ideas are being tested by amaterurs or small companies without sufficient funding. Big companies appear to focus just on scuba and leisure diving.

AQUEON:

vault01.jpg




FREEDOM FINS (not sure if it was not FRENCH FINS originally :) )

page0_1.png
 
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Trux you are right about comparisation of fins.
Today i drew many models with flow on a paper, many sketches and so on, and to me the split fins have inovative idea, but the wrong inplemintation. The problem thiese fins are efficient in turbulense wise( if they build in right way ), but produce side force so that result force that move you forward isnt so high. So to make them also so effective as C4s for example you have to increase a size of blade. By doing it the fins will work a bit different the force will act in outa direction of split so that a result force in your swimm direction will be relative low.
No matter split or long fins , stereo fins at all are in another class to Monos, i think they will never reach the grade of mono because of turbulance by kicking stereo wise ..

As for "Wing fins" if you look only on one splited blade shape it works like the wing, nothing special. The flows from each splited wing colide with eachother and because of highpressure and lowpressure on the outa side it comes to turbulent flow, what isnt realy good.

The other point is, thiese fins should be desgned in right way, so the splited blade parts should be very flexible.
 
£íáµ said:
...to me the split fins have inovative idea, but the wrong inplemintation.
I do not doubt it can be done better, but I do not think that the principle is wrongly implemented at the leading split fins like those of Scuba Pro, Atomic Aquatics and possibly others. If it was wrongly implemented, I'd expect they performed worse than comparable classical fins and that is definitely not the case - in their category, they are more efficient with less effort, fatigue and air consumption. If you call it "wrong implementation", then I wonder how they perform once the principle is implemented correctly. And I wonder how they'd perform if applied on bigger/longer/larger bi and mono fins. That's why started this thread in the first place.


£íáµ said:
The problem thiese fins are efficient in turbulense wise( if they build in right way ), but produce side force so that result force that move you forward isnt so high.
The results and tests do not confirm your words, they rather tell the propeller split fin effect indeed helps. Every fin, regardless if it is short or long, bi or mono, causes turbulances. Basically, I rather tend to believe that plain flat fins with no profiling and a stright blade edge (like most of current monofins) cause much more turbulences. All common flat fins cause trubulence not only on the leaving edge, but also on the sides. Especially long freediving fins do that; wide rigid triangular monofins may cause less turbulences sidewise but a lot on the leaving edge. However, all this is just a theory - I'd simply love to see much more analysis, simulations, and tests before telling that the principle is not suitable for freediving fins or monofins.


£íáµ said:
No matter split or long fins , stereo fins at all are in another class to Monos, i think they will never reach the grade of mono because of turbulance by kicking stereo wise ..
Yes, I definitely agree. That's why I started this thread in the "monofin" category. I do not care about small scuba and snorkelling propeller fins. I want to see this concept properly and carefully tested in the competition area on performance monofins or big/long freediving bi-fins. It is nice to hear the opinions of experienced freedivers that they do not trust the propeller idea, but I am not ready to accept the opinion with no precise science, comparative tests or own experience. I simply cannot believe so easily that the principle that makes wonders at scuba fins, in the same time, at performance fins, it is completely rejected just because of conservativism, without even attempting to experiment with it.
 
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Hi guys,

Interesting thread. The problem I see is that the market for monofins is really not large enough to justify the expense of trying out certain concepts in controlled conditions - unless you like really expensive hobbies! :duh

I've been thinking about monofins for a long time, tried out many different kinds, although none of the really new ones.

In my mind, these are the important points I would like to see address by a new design:

1. Asymetrical foil on upstroke and downstroke: I think most monofin designs work okay on the downstroke, but the upstroke acts like a brake at worst, or generates little lift, at best. I believe that mammals with fins get propulsion out of both upstroke and downstroke. True, trained finswimmers can get propulsion on the upstroke, but that costs extra energy for a freediver.

2. Clean leading edge with optimal angle of attack: The problem with the monofin in its current incarnation, is that it's attached to a person's feet, which, while they are flexible, are nothing when compared to the thinner shaft of a whale or dolphin's tail stem (or whatever you want to call it). I can't say for sure, but I would guess that when a whale moves its tail through the water, the leading edges of the fin are able to act on fairly undisturbed water (I'm assuming that's optimal - I may be wrong). This would allow the whale or dolphin to adjust the angle of attack of the fin for maximum thrust or max efficiency, depending on its needs. When I wear a monofin, I get the feeling that despite all my training, I'm stalling the fin at the beginning of each downstoke and throughout the upstroke. Usually the top part of the monofin around and under the footpocket is super stiff relative to the rest of the fin, meaning that it doesn't achieve the proper angle of attack needed for optimal lift and thrust. We need to get the leading edge of the monofin away from the body, like in the Aqueon, but perhaps it doesn't need to be so extreme and "in the way." I'm thinking of a concept that would create a "whale tail stem" for us humans that would put the monofin in front of our bodies and slightly below, giving it undisturbed water and the ability for us to control the angle of attack.

3. Less Turbulence: Obviously, a monofin that is flat at rest will create turbulence as you begin and end each stroke. A whale/dolphin tail is curved in 3-D. The edges of the monofin also give turbulence. You need a fin that has different thickness and flex characteristics as you near each edge (see windsurfing sail design musings below)

4. Form drag. Either you can create a flexible nose cone and stick your head and arms in it to reduce frontal resistance , or create a super efficient fin and swim much more slowly and more relaxed (like a Whale). I think most of us want something in between, but perhaps that's not the best way for us to swim. Think of how efficient no-fins really can be, just using our arms, we cover 3-5 meters of distance with one stroke. Yet, with a monofin we have to build up a stroke frequency to get going and really pay attention to reduce drag so we don't waste the energy.

5. Lift to mass ratio. I think we can safely say that the monofin is hugely inefficient compared to our marine mammal cousins when you look at the relative size of our fins. Dolphins have a tiny fin, but can go so fast. A blue whale is 100 feet long, and has a small fluke in comparison. But both have amazing body mechanics and musculature to make it all work. A monofin is between 1/4 and 1/3 our body length and twice as wide in some cases, yet we suck. Partly this is because our muscles and skeleton aren't set up for active streamlining. But also, I think, because we are not using the monofin in the right way for our limitations. It's not how big it is, but how you use it.

I think we can learn a lot from windsurfing sail design. The modern windsurfing sail, when powered up, uses battens and less often nowadays, cambers, to lock in a certain foil shape to create lift, even during lulls. In gusts, the head of the sail (the narrow part at the top), twists, flattens and loosens to allow wind to easy slip from the sail without causing tubulent drag. The battens in the sail have different thicknesses along the width of the sail to keep the overall foil shape consistent from luff to leech. So this means that you can configure a sail to be very powerful in light wind to get you going and then also still work very well when overpowered by not creating too much turbluence off the leech (trailing edge).

This could be applied to the monofin. I would expect if you could get the materials right, each stroke would be slow and drawn out, perhaps taking 2-3 seconds to complete, creating lift/thrust throughout the stroke. The centre of the fin would be thick and fat for lift and the edges would easily align with the water flow coming off the centre of the fin. If you wanted to go faster, you could shorten the tail stem and increase your stroke frequency and adjust the tension of the monofin to maintain its shape under higher load pressures. Possibly, the fin would be quite small relative to current designs.

These are exciting concepts I would like to apply to the monofin and try out some other revolutionary designs. I have lots of ideas on how to do it. Anyone have $10,000 they want to invest in my new monofin project?
I'm serious. :)

Pete
 
Pete i mostly agree with you
1 and 2 is almost the same problem, btw depends from each other.
3. agree +there some other aspects, that also very impotant.
5. The problem is our mammals friends have perfect body, and we dont.They have perfect surface flow, we dont.

trux i think a splitfins are better than normal stereo fins ( simple shape, blade + footpocket ) but not than stereo fin that i have in mind ...
I know what you mean ... but the problem is monos and stereos are "different" in functionality. splited mono in the middle, will produce more inductive resistance ( i hope its corect word for it ) but better waterflow, that is also attainable by normal monos with same or better efficiency with less inductive resistance. What i want to say right desgned monofin ( that i have in mind ) will be better than well desgned Split monofin by same dimensions.

What i wanted to say with wrong implemintation of split fins, that there is a way to do it better, also "split" fins but different implemintation.

To me Split fins arent Eutektoid as monos :blackeye

i have already many concepts, and also as Pete many ideas ... that arent wrong ...
the problem is i have no time,not even to train :waterwork , no money, and no simulating flow tube. You can simulate it in nummeric, but it isnt so good as real simulation. Also materials arent cheap. I hate it, mostly its all about money ... :hmm
 
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