Recoiless Speargun.........Is it possible ? | DeeperBlue.com Forums
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Recoiless Speargun.........Is it possible ?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Iyadiver

Mr. Long Post
Apr 22, 2002
998
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Guys,

I been reading books & surfing alot on the net and when it comes to 5+ bands speargun or any speargun with more than 400 pounds of rubber pull, strong recoil becomes a factor. I been surfing for answer how to make the recoil kick dissapear or at least greatly reduced. Still no answer. I don't want to shoot 300+ pound tuna, I just like the beauty of mechanical engineering on big guns.

This forum has plenty of engineers............so, so......start the wild recoiless fantasy guys.

I know of CO2 guns of long time ago in books. About +-7 years ago an American company called Swivel Machine Works at one time made a speargun but they don't call it a speargun, I think they call it a harpoon. It was under fishery product, I think it might be used for whaling or something. It uses scuba compressed air at 3000 psi. It can be hose fed from ur scuba tank or a small mini bottle mounted on the gun. The advertise power is 800 something foot pound energy and the shaft is like 3/4" or at least 18mm from the photo. It comes in many version and there is one that looks like an M-16. It has shouder butt like any land rifle. This gun is unique cause you can change the barrel to make it function for different use. One of them is to shoot out those anchor hook for SWAT team to climb buildings. The other is to shoot a float ( probably inflatable type ) & line for man over board situation. With a payload of 1 kg something it can launch this float up to , I think 150 meters. Another barrel change turn it into archery rifle. Can't remember all the details. Selling at US$1,800 something. This gun I guarantee is close to recoiless. I wish I could afford it those days..........even today, I still can't afford it too...unless I don't go clubbing for a year ?????

Now the company only make a Ruger 77 converted to shoot arrow using .22 blank cartridge as the power source.

I am just curious why no one have created a recoiless band guns ? Have anyone known to try it ? Adding side stock and ballast and so on sounds primitive to me cause it doesn't sound like a Star Trek approach.

"Beam the shaft into that giant tuna Scotty "

America being a country full of resources and high tech engineering should come up with something to combat recoill.
Perhaps a fluid filled flexible mount on pistol grip that absorbs recoill the way fluid filled engine mounts work on certain high end cars works to absorb vibration and engine torque.

I don't believe but can not prove it that : recoill comes a 100% from the action-reaction thing ( Newton ? ) when launching a heavy shaft. Kitto website has that formula :

MS x VS = MG x VG

Mass of spear x Velocity of Spear is equal to Mass of Gun x Recoill
and thus ...bla...bla...bla

To those non- Einstein it means, if you launch out a dollar out of your wallet, a dollar less your wallet will have by the moment this one dollar left your wallet.

I don't attend CalTech, but I used to hang around at CalTex ( gas station ) often.

I believe, again can not be proven, that some of the recoill ( say 25% ...ok ok, 20%.......ok,ok, maybe 15% ) comes from the rubber itself snapping back into normal shape after being stretch 330% something. Why I am so sure of this : pneumatic guns are almost recoiless. If the shaft forward momentum is the major recoill maker, pneumatic must then recoill as bad as a band gun of the same power equivalent. I know they don't cause I use them many years.

I used to be a freak for precision airguns, I still have 3 damn good ones but can't afford new ones anymore cause they cost US$1000 and above for the high end ones. One is a recoiless 3000 psi scuba tank charged model. The other uses a gas ram system ( air spring ) instead of steel spring, the same basic design as any pneumatic speargun but the piston and air chamber is much bigger. The last one uses a regular spring for power source. The mentioned speargun recoill formula that the mass of the projectile x speed is equal to the rearwards recoill, it is not 100% true.

My 3000 psi charged ( PreCharged Pneumatic ) airgun has zero recoill while producing a pellet impact of 19 foot pounds.
My gas ram piston airgun has strong recoil cause the piston compresses the air from almost +- 1.2 liter air volume to nearly zero in the bore/chamber and thus this jet like air flow will push the pellet thru the barrel. This one has energy of also +- 19 foot pound. The recoill comes from the colliding of piston to the end of the air chamber, a very unique two way recoill cause the piston bounce more than once before stopping. Same recoill story with the spring piston airgun. The double recoil on my air-spring type airgun is strong enough to break aiming recticle of reputable telescopes like Leupold and Zeiss. The cocking effort on the air spring type can be as high as 40 pound using the break barrel design already in consideration of 60 cm of leverage effect to help. If say we need to load it like we do on pneumatic speargun by pushing a shaft into the barrel, I think very few people can ever load my air-spring airgun.

I like spring piston airgun as example because they are similiar to band guns. One use steel or air spring for energy source and the other elastic rubber. I know spring powered speargun exist last time. In fire arms the bullet has its on energy supply so not a good comparison.

Now, combined world wide sales of airgun is massive. Speargun in comparison is peanuts. UK is the design heaven of high end scuba charged pellet airguns, Germany is good with spring piston type. I guess where fire arms aren't allowed, people go for airguns. The good thing about having so much airgun shooters in the UK & Germany is that eventually some smart guy will come with a brilliant idea. Their quest was to remove recoill from the airguns. Now scuba charged airguns is the most succesful way of doing it but some brilliant engineers actually made recoiless high power spring piston airguns. One John Wiscombe of UK made a twin opposing spring piston design which is recoiless. Both pistons counter each other recoil. Sound simple but it was not that easy to make. Now he sells them at US$1,600 each and you need to wait at least 4 months to get it. Handmade gem.

RWS/Diana of Germany also has a recoiless ( not totally ) model which is available in the US for less than US$500.

Why can't somebody with good engineering background make a recoiless high power band/rubber speargun so that poor guys like me need not turn blue at 25 feet.

Imagine having a short 140 cm gun, small size, not too thick say between a Riffe and RA. Need no ballast, wings & stabilizer. Powered by 6 or 7 9/16 bands, shooting 30 feet lethal distance with 8mm (9/16") shafts and almost recoiless. Boy what a dream.
When NASA wanted to send man to the moon, they first thought it was impossible.

I would like to hear technical possibility from you smart guys.


Thanks
Iya
 
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kumuhunta

New Member
Apr 15, 2002
65
10
0
your answer is a daryl wong ONO gun.
The speargun is an enclosed track teak speargun with internal weights to prevent recoil. The gun has no side stocks so it is less bulky in the water and easier to track fish. Ive never used one yet buy I have seen it on the daryl wong spearfishing video called "the reef and beyond"
Daryl wong makes alot of guns in various lengths, sizes and styles.

you can see the different spearguns on his website.
I forget the website but go to www.yahoo.com and type in "Aim Rite" it will then show the aim rite website for you too look at.

hope this helps.
 

Iyadiver

Mr. Long Post
Apr 22, 2002
998
72
0
Thanks Kumuhunta,

I surfed practically all the guns on the net. I seen the Ono gun, I like the blue camo but it is big & ballasted with lead. Anyway I'm just curious & waiting for the "engineers" in this forum to speak out all of their ideas on how to remove recoil the non-conventional way. You will be surprised that a question like this might produce incredible ideas.

Cheers,
Iya
 

Mr. X

Forum Mentor
Staff member
Forum Mentor
Jul 14, 2005
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There used to be a damper device that could be fitted into the butt of a shotgun that might help (esp. in woodies). Don't know much about it, I think it was made out of steel tubes & was oil-based -- it was perhaps 7" long. I think it was promoted, and possibly invented by then national clay shooting coach, Chris Craddock (in England) -- who was quite old back then (20-30 years ago).

Also, have you seen those recoiless hammers/mallets? I believe they put loose lead shot in the hollow head. I expect the energy of the recoil moves the shot within the head, rather than the head itself.
 
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donmoore

New Member
Aug 19, 2002
958
154
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Mr X,
Fascinating information! I have thought a lot about reducing recoil in a speargun, even chatted some with Iya about it, but never thought of a solution like this. I found a link to the hammer/mallet. http://mdmetric.com/prod/wiha/57-59.pdf#search='recoilless%20mallet Looks like it is manufactured in Germany.

Shotgun dampers were a little harder to find. The current trend appears to be mercury filled ones called recoil reducers or suppressors. They are made by Bennell and other manufacturers. People swear they really work on shotguns. Here is a website with some http://www.98.net/chr/suppressors/index.htm#top . E-bay currently has two Bennell recoil reducer for sale.

I suppose finding one that would not corrode would be very important. There already is too much mercury in the water. Looks like they put them just about any place they can. Magazine tube, unused barrel of an over under gun, stock, or latch it onto the barrel.

I really wonder what it would do for a speargun. Unfortunately I won’t be able to experiment for a while. I just bought a Wong Magnum and haven’t even been out with yet so I am in no position to experiment and compare.

Iya, in my opinion, is right about the bands adding significantly to the recoil. A band diameter more than doubles as it contracts. The increase in size while it is contracting grabs the water more and forces the gun back more.
don
 
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ajwaverider

New Member
Jan 3, 2004
422
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Mr. X said:
Also, have you seen those recoiless hammers/mallets? I believe they put loose lead shot in the hollow head. I expect the energy of the recoil moves the shot within the head, rather than the head itself.


I have a few ideas that i'd like to play with but I saw a docu on the history channel about the stanley brand shock free hammer.The hammer uses a tuning fork inside the handle to reduce the amount of impact transmitted to the persons hands. The Y part of the tuning fork faces away from the hammers head I think. I have been working alot and haven't been spearing in like 2 or 3 months so my brain isn't functioning properly.I thought about a stabilizer I use on my compound bow that helps reduce recoil.Maybe some one can come up with some more ideas. Nice to hear from you Iya .
 

stoneshot

Custom Speargun Builder
Aug 20, 2005
49
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0
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I don't believ the tuning fork would work, the bow stabilizer however has possiblities.

I was thinking about a weight that moves forward when the bands are released to reduce recoil, then returns when pulled back.

The guns I build are rather heavy and don't have much recoil even with 4 5/8" bands. But, that said I build a mid range gun that might benefit from a recoil reducer. I rarly use more than two bands on the reefs though.

Just one other thing to put in my idea book. I am working on a dedicated one band freeshafting muzzle right now.
 

Kin

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2005
51
8
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No recoil is impossible, but horizontial recoil is what you need.
Rollerguns have minimum recoil and it does not kick up, only backwards and it is nearly inexistent.

PS: And remember that 5 bands in a conventional speargun is equal to 2-3 bands on a roller (from my experience).
 
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Ted Budion

Menace from the South
Aug 24, 2004
189
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Just apply the formula Kitto quoted. Higher the power (bands) and mass of the projectile (shaft), higher the recoil. Compare the frames of a .22 revolver with a .44 Magnum. In very basic terms, if you increase the mass of the gun this said mass will absorb a good part of the recoil before reaching your hand/arm/shoulder.

Band guns have inherently more vertical recoil, however small, because the the bands are actually "pulling" the shaft from an angle slightly off the latter axis. That's why--with the same power--eurobands that have the bands parallel to the shaft have less recoil than guns with open muzzles, that keeps bands a little under the shaft axis. This recoil may be incread by a wrist movement at the firing instant. Picture this: a tiny muzzle vertical movement combined with a wrist twisting ay change the original shaft trajectory in 2%, for example. That's enough to make you miss the target.

An air gun piston pushes the projectile onto its tail instead of pulling it out along all the run inside the barrel. And the air gun shaft is somewhat enclosed. Plus, an air gun has a higher mass than a band gun of similiar size and power. So air guns have less horizontal and vertical recoil. The long and mid-handle air guns we used to use in Brazil were even more precise because we leant the rear air chamber on our shoulders.

That's why one cannot just take some light european made band guns and just switch the standard 6.5mm shaft for a 7mm one, despite using the same bands. The higher recoil due to heavier shaft will decrease the rig precision, however its mere ounces of difference.

Ted
Rio
 
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Hypersquid1

Ride The Lightning
Jun 15, 2005
166
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i think its virtually impossible to create a firing device (i.e. gun, speargun, bow and arrow) that has no recoil. Take a page out of Sir Isaac Newton's book. Newton's Third Law of Motion clearly states that "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." this means that when a gun is fired, (the action) the bullet leaves the muzzle, and the rapid release of gases from the shell causes the bullet to move forward, which in turn causes the gun to jerk bac (the reaction) thus giving you kick or recoil. according to science, there is no possible way to create an action but no reaction. also, i think a speargun has much more power than a gun, giving you a slower but more powerful recoil, than a gun which gives you a fast recoil. Hypersquid1
 
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Murat

Promethian
Jun 21, 2002
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they are thinking of about mechanics that will absorb "reaction" so that way you can have recoilless speargun. In the case of speargun wrist help mostly to absorb that "reaction" for wood guns its the mass of the body, but for pneumatics i think there is no very effective method yet.May be there is and i am not aware of it rofl
 

Mr. X

Forum Mentor
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Jul 14, 2005
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Hypersquid1 said:
i think its virtually impossible to create a firing device (i.e. gun, speargun, bow and arrow) that has no recoil. Take a page out of Sir Isaac Newton's book. Newton's Third Law of Motion clearly states that "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." this means that when a gun is fired, (the action) the bullet leaves the muzzle, and the rapid release of gases from the shell causes the bullet to move forward, which in turn causes the gun to jerk bac (the reaction) thus giving you kick or recoil. according to science, there is no possible way to create an action but no reaction. also, i think a speargun has much more power than a gun, giving you a slower but more powerful recoil, than a gun which gives you a fast recoil. Hypersquid1
While it might be impossible to eliminate recoil force, it is certainly possible to reduce recoil perceived by the shooter or "kick". We already discussed several methods (gun with large mass vs. lower mass spear, loose internal mass that recoils, oil damper,...). A 12-bore shot gun can have a lot of kick -- but not all 12-bores kick; some are heavy, some use recoil pads or dampers, some use the recoil force to reload the gun...they have almost no kick at all. Also, the way you hold a 12 bore makes a big difference -- if you have it held solidly into your shoulder the chance of injury is greatly reduced compared to if you just have it hovering around the shoulder -- when it kicks, you want your mass to be one with the gun mass so the overall acceleration is tiny....rather than having a light gun slamming back at you fast. So maybe the goal is to reduce "kick" rather than all recoil force. [Personally, I have never experienced any recoil worth worrying about with my speargun -- but then I weigh around 230lb and have a firm grip on my modestly powered 90cm railgun! :D]

Kin said:
No recoil is impossible, but horizontial recoil is what you need.
Rollerguns have minimum recoil and it does not kick up, only backwards and it is nearly inexistent.

PS: And remember that 5 bands in a conventional speargun is equal to 2-3 bands on a roller (from my experience).
Interesting...I did wonder if rollerguns might have some benefits in this area. A reason for the advantage is not immediately obvious ... to me anyway!:duh
 
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DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
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Hypersquid1 said:
i think its virtually impossible to create a firing device (i.e. gun, speargun, bow and arrow) that has no recoil.
Unless you want it to shoot to both sides. :D
Or make something that works in the same prinicple of a rocket launcher, but that seems kinda impractical.
 

Ron Bakker

Rons Sea Corner
Nov 5, 2004
154
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Well if we had mass going in the opposite direction(not a spear, this would hurt) Maybe in a wooden gun you could have a small mass of lead being jolted in the opposing direction with let say only 200mm of travel.
 

popgun pete

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2008
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Absorbing handle?
rubber block handle.jpg
 

marco15499

Laguneros Spearfishing
Apr 4, 2011
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This thread is very old, but Rollerguns are virtually recoilless. Also pneumatics have significantly less recoil than standard band spearguns.
 
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