Recreational Freediving Question

[dugout]

Hello everyone;

I have some basic questions at the risk of ignoring the obvious. I have been scuba diving for 30 years and I'm very comfortable in the water and pole spear hunting.

I have the bug to try freediving. I have the basic gear and have been swimming laps in the pool with it twice a week. I have read Maas's books, "Freedive" and "Bluewater Hunting" as well as Pelizzari's book, "Manual of Freediving". I've also spent many hours reading the posts on this board as well as SB. Heck, with all the precautions about SWB I'm scared of chasing a penny in the deep-end without a spotter so I guess I'm sufficiently prepared in that respect.

There seems to be a dramatic void of available information which distinguishes between the pure sport of competitive Apnea disciplines and recreational spearo freediving. It seems like most budding spearos expect 4 minute dives and are willing to take on the training programs and accept the risks to accomplish this.

I consider myself a realist. I'm an active middle aged guy and I want to hunt. I would like to work up to comfortable 90 sec dives. Is this a reasonable expectation? If it is, what is an appropriate course of, (and I use the word cautiously), training? I can hold my breath for 45 sec. sitting here relaxed and using what I have learned. The knowledge about relaxing, alone, has gained me 10 sec and I can do the length of a 25m pool without much effort, again after learning the lesson that "less is more" with fin strokes. I'm not a dare devil. I'm not willing to risk my comfortable life over a few seconds of bottom time, a few feet of depth, or any fish. I'm in no hurry and just want to learn a new way of diving, spear hunting, and enjoying life.
Any insight will be appreciated.

 

[rslomkow]

The reality is you need experience out in the open water.

I don't know where you hunt, but I definetly caught fish legal fish worth eating in northern California on 30-60 seconds in 5-12m (15-40 feet)

If spearfishing is your passion, the extra time and depth are mostly gravy. You need to learn how to find, stalk, and spot. That part is much harder to learn.

A couple of things. You are really early on the processes so improvement should be fast

90 seconds of descend 15 seconds, wait 60 seconds, 15 seconds return should be achievable in months (possibly days if you took a course) if you practice. From where you are now, 90 seconds of swimming is probably a distant goal at this point. A "normal" (if there were such a thing) rate of travel is 1m/sec (3feet per second) implies 15m (49feet) of depth

People vary. For me the ocean is the easiest place in the world to hold my breath, followed by lakes, followed by the pool, followed by dry land.

If you can swim 25yards underwater you should be able to hold your breath for longer than 45seconds relaxed on dry land. Try doing consecutive breath holds with a one minute recovery. I bet you will get over a minute on your 3rd or 4th attempt.

But if you are into recreational diving, concentrate your training time in the water and preferably in the ocean.

 

[deep thinker]

I second that, the best excersise for diving is diving, most spearos do a 1 to 1:30 min dive and we all get our fish, well most of us anyway rofl . As you said you are a active guy, so you should be at a reasonable level of fitness, excersises you can do on dry land is apnea walks and static O2 and CO2 tables to increase your tolerances and this inturn will make your dives more comfortable but once again dive and spend as much time underwater as you safely can, under supervision of coarse, and you should be there in no time .

 

[sachodrag]

I have a comment on your question. I have been spear fishing for more than 5 years. As I say 5 years i mean an active fishing of totally one or two weeks a year, it is just the place I live that does not allow me more . I make a dives over 2 min in open water without any practice or worm up, but holding my breath in a pool is very hard for me, I do 1:30~1:40 min static apnea and most of 30~40 meters dynamic apnea. I beleive that being in open water with the creatures themselves "Hunting" as you said, and being concentrated on your goal, being calm, and not thinking of how long have you been under water will impruve your abilities and lead you to the desired results.
You mentioned that being calm gave you 10 extra seconds. I suggest try to control your heart beat, this will give you at least 30 more sec, at least.
Good luck!

 

[dugout]

I want to thank everyone for responding and the encouragement.

Yes, “just do it”, is sound advise but it’s very cold here now and we are iced up. The open water will have to come later and I’m stuck in the pool for now. I’m just trying to prepare as best I can. Just getting accustomed to a snorkel took some time…

I should mention that my stated “static” is a dry, relaxed in a chair, one shot deal. I only do this out of curiosity and don’t believe it has any relevance. I bail out at the first contraction. I can do 25m slow and smooth before the first contraction, after I warm up, so maybe I’m getting someplace based upon your comments. This is double the distance I could do when I started.

I have not done any O2 or CO2 tables. I may be 100% wrong but I don’t think I want to develop a tolerance to CO2. I want an active alarm system which signals me when it’s time to breath and I plan on listening to it. I guess I would rather focus training on development of the Dive Reflex, bringing it on quicker, and deeper, and general control over going into and out of it. As someone said, "heart rate", or lowering O2 consumption is the path I feel I should follow. I may be totally wrong but at this point in my education I feel CO2 tolerance training may be wrong for recreational breath-hold spearos like me. This is one of the training gaps I see between “Competitive Freedivers” and “Recreational Spearos”. Pushing limits to Samba or Blackout may be okay in controlled conditions with a gaggle of spotters but pushing past the point when the body says “Breath Stupid” seems “problematic” at sea, even in the best conditions. Once we venture past this point it seems a guess as to how long is too long on any given day? Hunting has a tendency to preoccupy one’s thoughts. In my youth I sucked scuba cylinders dry resulting in emergency ascents, while hunting at 80 feet. Ignoring my body’s natural warning signal seems wrong.

Is there any information / training I can do pointed at control and development of the Dive Reflex while heeding the body’s natural CO2 warnings?

Thanks again!

 

[fcallagy]

Hi dugout not a spearo but i can see where your coming from i think. Most freedivers dont push to smabo bo levels and the training is about getting your body to adapt a little better to the breath hold situation so in turn its more relaxed either prolonging your dive or if you prefer coming up after your noraml time but with a much bigger margin of error built in. I train a little bit of static as it gives me a better confidence when i am underwater knowing i can normally hold out for longer etc.
Dive reflex i feel can be brought about in the pool or by static to some extent at least. When training my limbs get very cold and i take it as a sign that blood is moving away from them ( either that or I,m lying in a drafty area) You may see others doing negative hold ( with empty lungs ) to bring on the dive reflex quicker but the simplest and safest way in my mind would be to do a course. What part of the world are you? there may be one nearby

 

[Bill McIntyre]

dugout-

I don't have much to add to what has already been said, but I want to say that I agree with your reluctance to use CO2 tables. Suppressing the body's signal to breath may make sense for pure free divers in highly controlled conditions, but it sounds like a very poor idea for a spearfisherman.

Your description of yourself as a middle aged veteran with 30 years of scuba sounds a lot like me. I was a serious freediving spearfisherman from about age 13 to 15, then got my first scuba gear (1954) and was primarily a bubble blower until I decided to return to freedive spearfishing at age 57. I wished that I had been freediving back in my late 30s when I was in shape to run marathons, but I had not, and I had no illusions that I was going to set any depth or time records. I took it very slowly and cautiously for the first couple of years, and now at age 68 my aim is to stave off decline in performance rather than improve.

I hesitate to even discuss actual dive times since there seems to be such a wide variation in individual capabilities, and I suspect that there is also a very wide variation in the level of discomfort that divers are willing to tolerate. I want to hit the surface with no feeling of urgency, and while I took "seeing stars" for granted when I was a teenager, I now consider that to be a near-death experience. I have never felt a contraction, and would be terrified if I did.

With all those caveats, I think your goal of 90 seconds may not be out of line. For me, on a good day when I'm relaxed, taking plenty of time to breath up, not swimming against a current, or overly excited over a fish that is tied up in the kelp, dives in the one minute range are comfortable. If one or more of those conditions is not met, the dives may be more in the 45 to 50 second range. If things are really going well and I'm just hanging at my neutral depth or holding onto a piece of kelp, I may hit 90 seconds.

I'm almost embarrassed to mention those times because I know that so many people reading this do so much better, but maybe most of them are younger than we are. In any event, don't pay much attention to the times of others, but just work to be comfortable within your own capabilities. At least in Southern California, I can get plenty of fish with dives like mine.

BTW, I have no idea what my dry static time is because I never hold my breath out of water. It makes me feel uncomfortable, sort of "breathless." I don't do any pool work because I don't have easy access to one. I do run and cycle and lift weights, and I think those general fitness activities help. In particular, I find that leg extensions and curls with weights help keep my kick strong and avoid hamstring cramps.

Good luck, and be safe.

 

[dugout]

Fergus:
I'm on the east coast of the USA. There is a course, PFD, available in Miami Florida, which is a two hour flight from here. I may not clearly understand but after reading the course outline it seems a little over the top, (intense) for who I am and what I'm about. Don't get me wrong; I'm totally fascinated by the accomplishments and dedication of Freedivers.
Ah, cold arms and feet... And here I just thought the pool water was getting cold for some reason. YES, this is great! I am experiencing this so I might be doing something correct. And here I thought about changing from 3mil to 5mil boots and gloves...

Bill;
You seem to understand EXACTLY where my head is! I'm a 49 year old "has-been Jock", wrestling with the toll age and experience has taken on my body. My doctor says I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in...
Mostly, I'm taking a reality check of my current expectations and maybe a little guidance.
As my daughter points out, "your not over the hill, Dad, but you can see it from there"...:crutch

I'm really enjoying the new challenge and the pool time. I'm going to keep at it till spring and maybe I'll surprise myself. There is a small group of spearos, who gather, and I would like to join them without being a total burden. The idea of hunting without scuba is exciting. I never even owned a speargun, until recently, now I have a pile of them... Ive enjoyed shooting them in the pool, as well! They beat a pole spear all to heck and back!

 

[fcallagy]

hi dugout, you may have seen this already but a thread on bottom times is below
http://forums.deeperblue.net/beginner-hunting/69907-bottom-times.html#post631469

as to the course i have done two and i enjoy freediving but on the course you find many people from other walks of life possibly spearos or scuba divers who are trying to improve their air consumption you can always do as much or as little as you like. Knowing it aint gonna be much harm i think my point is that developing the dive reflex is dive training no matter how its done and a course if possible to do is always gonna be more beneficial than the valuble forums here. just my 2 cents

 

[dugout]

hi dugout, you may have seen this already but a thread on bottom times is below

as to the course i have done two and i enjoy freediving but on the course you find many people from other walks of life possibly spearos or scuba divers who are trying to improve their air consumption you can always do as much or as little as you like. Knowing it aint gonna be much harm i think my point is that developing the dive reflex is dive training no matter how its done and a course if possible to do is always gonna be more beneficial than the valuble forums here. just my 2 cents

You have a very valid point. Education is never a bad thing, regardless of ones preconceived ideas. The basic courses are full this spring but maybe I'll look into the summer course. I'll have some open water experience by then, as well. Thanks! A few days in Miami and maybe the following week in the Keys is certainly appealing.

 

[icarus pacific]

By and large, what everyone has said here is true to a point. But what has been missed and I'll drop this one on you, is to go and join a club.

Head over to the dive shop(s) in your area and ask the owner or look at the bulletin board and see who's who and when they meet. You'll save yourself a lot of grief and a lot of time and money by learning from others learnt curves.

There are more than a few real, as in real good spearos over on that side of the country and most if not all are affiliated with a club. Hit them up for the tips that will usually come from buying them a pop at the local, offering to put some gas in the tank and then just, shut up, watch and listen.

At 47 and with 36 years of diving, I'm in a space that though I'm real comfortable with my diving skills, I'm also wanting to not lose any of those skills, thus I'm heading over to Kona next week to participate in a PFI clinic. Not so much as to see how long I can hold my breath in a pool or how deep I can go down a rope, but just to keep the noggin filled. And safe.

 

[dugout]

By and large, what everyone has said here is true to a point. But what has been missed and I'll drop this one on you, is to go and join a club. Head over to the dive shop(s) in your area and ask the owner or look at the bulletin board and see who's who and when they meet. You'll save yourself a lot of grief and a lot of time and money by learning from others learnt curves.

Thanks Sven, I appreciate the recommendation and I plan on doing just that. The local dive shop owner is a spearo and converted from scuba to freedive. There is a group who hunt together in the area. It's cold now and I'm just attempting to learn and do all I can to prepare myself for when things start getting going this spring.

 

[dugout]

Pool Training

I have been poking around reading a bunch and I ran across this training program focused up MDR without CO2 tolerance. What do y'all think? Look at post 19 and 20.
Spearboard Spearfishing Community - Freedive training

 

[cdavis]

Thank you dugout!

I knew Anderson worked up a training program, but had never seen it. Both he and Rig are very good spearo freedivers. I'm going to try his program.

I am in the "lousy C02 tolerance and like it" group, for the reasons Bill gave. Also a semi-oldy (57). If you want to train dry, you can apnea walk 1/2 lung. That works more on 02 than C02. Be careful, its very easy to pass out and hurt yourself doing 1/2 lung. Research it thoroughly before you start. Tylerz described a form of apnea walk that focuses on 02: apnea walk , every x seconds 3 or 4 fast shallow breaths, walk some more. You need to find the thread for the details, but it basicly blows off enough C02 to keep going
without restoring 02 levels. Keep at it and your 02 level stays low enough for a training effect to kick in.

Connor

 

[dugout]

Thank you dugout!

I knew Anderson worked up a training program, but had never seen it. Both he and Rig are very good spearo freedivers. I'm going to try his program.

I am in the "lousy C02 tolerance and like it" group, for the reasons Bill gave. Also a semi-oldy (57). If you want to train dry, you can apnea walk 1/2 lung. Connor

Connor, I'm happy to have contributed something useful to someone.
The first "sprint rep" like to kill me... You can really feel your heart rate settle down in the AR reps.
I'm going to stick to the wet. Like Bill, I really don't like holding my breath on terra firma.

Good luck!

 

[icarus pacific]

Hey Conner! Guess what Jon sent me!! :king

 

[cdavis]

Congratulations, Jon is unquestionably a great gentleman and scholar. Now you get to dive another decade or two (or three?). Mouthpiece, swivel and all?? I been looking for another one for years. I wonder where he found it.

Connor

 

[icarus pacific]

The prince of a guy found it on ebay! :king Brand stinking new, still had the release powder in the barrel and untouched moldables on the mouthpiece. I'm going to break it in in Kona next week. :friday

I'll think fondly of you all... :t

 

[Jon]

Somebody mention my name? :girlie

I was burning a DVD of my kids and did a quick search of ebay while I was waiting for it to finish and here I see this farallon snorkel staring me in the face with 8 minutes to go. The auction was done before my DVD was.

Anderson gave me a cipy of that program a few years ago, back when he used to post on here, and I did it for a while. The biggest thing I noticed was how well that AR, recovery breath, wroked. I have even used it palying underwater hockey and it seems to bring you back pretty good after a dynamic- I still use hook breaths for deep dives.

In some ways it's a much more comfortable workout than high C02 training all the time, but lately I've been working more on my monofin kick- where it is easy to do a crappy one that moves you pretty fast, but hard to really get it down pat so you "flow".

Jon

 

[cdavis]

Brand new?? I know people who would happily kill you for that piece of gear. Make it four decades, at least.

Connor