relation between Mouthfill und squeezes

[esom]

Hi there,
i'm thinking about squeezing and how it happens quite some time. one thing that intrigues me about this is that the mouthfill technique is said to help avoiding sqeezes. this also meets my experience somehow. still i think there is more to master than the mouthfill, to reach "pure white" deep freediving.

it is said by many people "do not ever open your epigloittis after 30m and you avoid squeezes".
if this advice is taken literally to explain sqeezes one may come to the conclusion which also federico mana states in his equalisation book:
by opening the epiglottis the lungspace is exposed to an underpressure existent in the mouthspace (if i remember correctly he is speaking of a mask suction effect too) and this can cause squeezes, otherwise the lung equalises itself due to a bloodshift and everything is fine.

when i imagine the conditiones of the moment the squeeze possibly happens, the following comes to my mind:

-you tense your ribcage/throat as part of "bring up air" action (may it be a lot for a fill, or a little for the next frentzel push).

-you are tensed in the ribcage/throat and this is connected to not being able to keep the epiglottis shut while simultanious "stress contractions".

-you are tensed in the ribcage/throat and keep your epiglottis shut, but still you are sqeezing.

(out of my recollction, i can connect each case to dives i did my own with mild squeezes afterwards)


i know how problematic it is to speak about "causes" in a being we see in ourselves - not even speaking of our fellow freedivers. and i take the short (dead?) track in the pattern i draw here too. still, maybe you want to comment on the question "how is sucking produced and what role plays the -keeping epiglottis shut- in these mechanics"

 

[Kars]

The easiest way I get squeezed when I'm stressed, cold, stiff, late with equalising. All of this with the need to do it quickly before I'm MUCH to deep, make a big effort to push up my diaphragm, lifting up the ribcage, opening up my mouth to suck the air from the lungs to my mouth. When I fail, the air pipe remains closed and no air gets to my mouth. I did have a few squeezes, where an instructor told me it was from a upper trachea (air pipe) squeeze judging from the one or two very small bright red drops I managed to cough up.

Some suspicion I have is that when I allow my mouth to become too empty before I take that last big mouth-fil that my air pipe may have deformed/collapsed too much rendering it impossible to get air through to my mouth.

 

[Simos]

Some suspicion I have is that when I allow my mouth to become too empty before I take that last big mouth-fil that my air pipe may have deformed/collapsed too much rendering it impossible to get air through to my mouth.

Do you mean collapse because of depth Kars? I am no expert but as far as I know this doesn't happen unless you are really deep (much deeper than you'd take a mouthfill)

Do you think it might be related to the pressure differential between your lungs/mouth? When I have empty lungs or lungs too full of air, I can't open my epiglottis (even out of the water) unless I move my diaphragm to remove some of the pressure differential (or at least this is what it feels is happening)

Eg take a very deep breath (maybe with a couple of packs) and then lock the epiglottis and open your mouth. Can you unlock the epiglottis to let air out? I can't do that unless I coordinate it with moving my diaphragm down to lessen the pressure...

Maybe it's a similar thing? Just a guess.

 

[esom]

Hi there,
maybe you want to comment on the question "how is sucking produced and what role plays the -keeping epiglottis shut- in these mechanics"

just a explanation about these question:
speaking of "sucking" i actually mean "damaging a part of the lungspace".

Further:
i think that maybe the opening of the epiglottis is only an attendent circumstance of a badly coordinated "try to fill", which produces a short increase in lungvolume (instead of decrease), leading to a squeeze.

 

[Simos]

just a explanation about these question:
speaking of "sucking" i actually mean "damaging a part of the lungspace".

Further:
i think that maybe the opening of the epiglottis is only an attendent circumstance of a badly coordinated "try to fill", which produces a short increase in lungvolume (instead of decrease), leading to a squeeze.

I believe what Federico Mana is referring to is the reason to equalise the mask first before equalising the ears.

If you do it the other way round, upon realising the nostrils you will get a certain amount of suction from the mask, therefore decreasing the pressure in the mouth/nasal cavities.

If you haven't reached RV, normally at this point you'd open the epiglottis and equalise the mouth/nasal cavities. But below RV this doesn't work and you could even end up being squeezed. So FM recommends equalising the mask first and competely isolating the lungs by closing the epiglottis and then actually focusing on equalising the ears without equalising the mask again (ie keeping nostrils pinched)

Also (and this might relate to Kars' experience too if diving with a mask), what might happen when you equalise the ears first without equalising the mask is that when you release the nostrils the suction effect from the mask might cause the tongue to lift against the soft palate and close/lock it - obviously no further equalisation is then possible.

All of this is in FM's book I believe so not sure if I answered the question in any way!

 

[esom]

Hi Simos,
thanks for bringing light into my "kind of quote" out of federicos book. my questions - hm. i think i'm interested to hear about other mechanical ways of explaining lung squeeze which are not related to sucking masks or mouths.

and there are two cases which may be differentiated (integration would be nice too):
1. squeezing while sinking down, trying to keep a mouthfill (not moving at all, having stress contractions though)
2. squeezing while trying to bring up air

 

[Simos]

If you have taken a mouthfill in theory at least you shouldn't have to bring up air. Whether from mask suction or because voluntarily try to bring up air you could get squeezed, hence I guess FM's suggestion to keep the lungs isolated during the whole descend.

I don't have experience with squeezes so can't tell you much. But a couple of things on top of my head:

1. Cold
2. Contractions
3. Actions like pulling hard the rope at the bottom
4. Packing
5. Inflexibility of related structures (lungs, diaphragm, thoracic etc)

 

[esom]

Cool you keep on going Simos,

this is an answer in itself in some way. more and more the less we differentiate between answer and question... when reading your "factors" it came to my mind that i like merging better than listing.

i said i could differentiate two cases:
1. i do nothing by purpose (do i?* - do i have to get rid of the purpose too?)
2. i do something purposefully ...how does the "hard" come in, in the depth?

further: what is filling? > in order to approach the subject full of trust for finding an answer, i wanted to start using mechanical language and pictures.

*in most cases the "mothfill keeping" part of my doing feels like doing nothing these days, and this feels right... is "being cold" ever right?

 

[Kars]

I did have a squeeze from a long dive, with an involuntary 40 second hang at - 40 m, due to some stupidity, resulting in a 2'50" dive (no samba or bo). Me and my companions believe it was due to the contractions on the way up. But in retro respect I think the cold and the sloppy equalisation (Only some Frenzel with maybe a minute bad very bad mouth-fill ) was part of the or the main cause of the minor squeeze, resulting in two small blood specks I managed to cough up on the boat.

Just to let you know I dive with a Sphera, which I always equalise at least until 25m or so, after that I have no problems of this mask sucking out air out of my nose or tubes. Actually I sometimes make use of the waters pressure squeezing my sphera mask nose to equalise against that hands free.
I think I've summarised my squeeze incidents which frankly all were flaws in my decision making, a mix of bad timing, too little practice and too much ambition.

I wish I could have some time at a warm depth and work on al aspects involved and completely feel unrestrained and comfortable at depth again. With such a lack of depth training and warm circumstances here I feel like a fish on the land.

On the question of automation, yes that does happen, and when it does it's another liberation towards a flowy dive.

 

[Arti]

As for me, I experienced squeezes several times near 30 m depth. I analyzed what whas the source of the problem and I think that I've got them (squeezes) because I coudn't equalize no more at 30-35 meters depth. And I strain my chest and lungs very heavily to make equalization effort at this depth (with no effect). This results in little barotrauma of the lungs (i.e. lung squeeze).

So I'll start to learn mouthfill technique - maybe it helps to avoid lung squeeze?

Does anybody have the same problems and mouthfill would help to reach 40 m depth easyly without squeezes? What do you think?

 

[Simos]

As for me, I experienced squeezes several times near 30 m depth. I analyzed what whas the source of the problem and I think that I've got them (squeezes) because I coudn't equalize no more at 30-35 meters depth. And I strain my chest and lungs very heavily to make equalization effort at this depth (with no effect). This results in little barotrauma of the lungs (i.e. lung squeeze).

So I'll start to learn mouthfill technique - maybe it helps to avoid lung squeeze?

Does anybody have the same problems and mouthfill would help to reach 40 m depth easyly without squeezes? What do you think?

I have no practical experience with mouthfill but I can tell you that the answer to your question is yes. ie if you do it right, you can very easily reach 40m with mouthfill without squeeze.

 

[esom]

Hi Arti,

i may be that i know your case veeery well. my experience is that along learning to use MF equalisation technique i was more and more able to 'stay white' until i now have done many 35+ dives without any blood.
still i more and more believe (thats why i started the thread) thats it´s less the used technique or the closed or opened epiglottis but the way of using it -or yourself as a hole?- that produces the symtoms.
...
you wrote:
"got them (squeezes) because I coudn't equalize no more at 30-35 meters depth. And I strain my chest and lungs very heavily to make equalization effort at this depth (with no effect)"

trying to equalize although not being able to is how i got the strongest bleeding,
but getting the equalization quite easy! (instead of doing it easily) resulted in bleeding -less though- many times too. Interestingly same with succesful? MF dives.

in a nutshell: MF was for me not a pill i swollowed, on the way i learn about pills.

 

[dannybuoy]

I have no practical experience with mouthfill but I can tell you that the answer to your question is yes. ie if you do it right, you can very easily reach 40m with mouthfill without squeeze.

Simos, it's a little bit more complicated than that -there are several causes for squeezing, bad eq being only one of them. In fact, quite often squeezes are a result of bad education and bad advice on a forum; sometimes this type of inexperienced advice can be dangerous.

Arti, probably the best thing for you is to seek the advice of a qualified and experienced instructor who can help you with this problem -in water, not online. In the meantime, it never hurts to work on your diaphragmatic flexibility.

 

[Simos]

Simos, it's a little bit more complicated than that -there are several causes for squeezing, bad eq being only one of them. In fact, quite often squeezes are a result of bad education and bad advice on a forum; sometimes this type of inexperienced advice can be dangerous.

Arti, probably the best thing for you is to seek the advice of a qualified and experienced instructor who can help you with this problem -in water, not online. In the meantime, it never hurts to work on your diaphragmatic flexibility.

You are right Daan - i take my comment back as it was not intended as being advice on how to try and 'self-medicate' for something as dangerous as squeeze. I was just making the point that if you are straining to EQ and getting squeezed because of it, investing your time/money to learn how to learn to MF would be worth it.

Seeking practical tuition/advice from an instructor would be by far the wisest thing to do for this kind of issue.

 

[esom]

I have no practical experience with mouthfill but I can tell you that the answer to your question is yes. ie if you do it right, you can very easily reach 40m with mouthfill without squeeze.

Arti, probably the best thing for you is to seek the advice of a qualified and experienced instructor who can help you with this problem -in water, not online.

is one of these two advices really dangerous? in case 'yes', which one?

...

 

[Simos]

is one of these two advices really dangerous? in case 'yes', which one?

...

I think the moral of the story is not to rely on info on forums for such issues but get proper tuition and get an instructor to diagnose and help in the water.

If you are asking in terms of experience, Daan is a lot more experienced than me and better freediver - as stated in my original post I don't have experience with MF - so he knows what he talking about.

I was merely stating the fact that it is definitely possible to get to 40m using MF and not get squeezed from equalising - it doesn't mean you can learn to do a proper MF by yourself and avoid squeeze, it doesn't mean you won't get squeezed because of some other reason and it certainly doesn't mean that MF is the only way to get to 40m without squeeze.

 

[Kars]

The ultimate responsibility lies within the student.
The student should learn how to learn.
The student should always be on guard learning anything.
The student should talk and think things through and try 1 new thing at the time.

This is what I think at this moment.

 

[trux]

Arti, probably the best thing for you is to seek the advice of a qualified and experienced instructor who can help you with this problem -in water, not online.

On the other hand, the advantage of the online advice is that he won't get as easily squeezed online as in water.

 

[patita]

i thonk 30, 35 mts squeezing refers , to either, lack of flexibility, but mostly , lack of relaxation! when you are not relax, like when reaching new dephts, we tend to close the muscles around the throat , and tense the chest muscles.....further on we start to do equalization , by pulling the air from the lungs , is very easy to notice you can hear yourself equalizing......
This can rely in lung squeeze!
So why dont you try to practice more your relaxation, do a good stretching and put the line up, until you feel confident to go to the next depth!
Cannot understand that a regular freediver reachs his failure depht at 35 mts!

 

[Apneaddict]

Another factor for me and trachea squeezes is head movement at depth.

On the descent... Looking for the bottom
plate will stretch the trachea and can add trauma, resulting in a few specs of blood.

Once at the bottom, I looked down and tucked my chin into my chest to find the Velcro that I attached to my belt for the tag to stick to... And this too could have contributed to a trachea squeeze.

Keep the head neutral and don't extend or bend the neck at depth.

Also, negative packing and diaphragm stretching on land can help and then you can add in GENTLE neck movements / stretching whilst under a negative pressure / vacuum. Be careful though, I've received a trachea squeeze on dry land!

Does that make me the worlds worst Freediver?!?! LOL