Rescue Question

[blueface]

When rescuing a blackout victim will stress (yelling at him, slapping, etc.) prolong the laryngospasm (if there is one) or have any negative effect besides sometimes causing shock? Is it different for each situation?

I imagine quite a few rescues don't go as smoothly as the ones during the freedive competitions and I was just curious. Most recreational divers (including myself) aren't comfortable with blackouts and have a hard time staying calm.


Skip

 

[fcallagy]

Cant tell you the exact reasons phsically but I was always told to speak the persons name strong but not loud. I think the sub concious kinda needs to know its cool to give back control to this twat that just tried to drown him/herself. If the body is getting slapped about and shook/shouted at the sub concious says ah bugger this I,ll stay here in control for another while in case it gets any worse.

That said that used to be the old way of doing it and I,m sure it brought back many a victem. There was a thread here on whether we think black out is your body completlty losing control and shutting down or whether the mind decides to shut down to protect the body but kinda hard to tell exactly.

 

[azapa]

there are some nice tips here, and simply put too:
Freediving safety

Watch some BO's on video if you can, There are some on youtube and in Trux's media base.

I find my buddies (mainly overly macho spearos) are too "shy" to talk about or practice rescues.

Try it, one dives and shows signs on the way up of distress. The other "rescues".

Seeing it in real life, the first time, is spooky of course, but it is rewarding to see how quick nearly all divers recover.

 

[cdavis]

Hi Skip,

Strong recommendation on the "practice" thing. You can count on things not going "smoothly." Practice will reveal all sorts of issues you never thought of. Even if you have had thorough training, practice is really a necessity. Its pretty amazing how smooth you can get with decent training and a little practice. Conversely, you can be pretty well trained but not practice and find all sorts of ways to screw up when a real BO comes along (personal experience)

Yelling at the victim or hitting him is not good form. Think about it, the victim is unconscious, but still has limited subconscious awareness, can't see, but can hear and feel(subconsiously). He needs to know he is in the air and it is safe to breath. Hit him and he is likely to wake up pissed and lay you out. Don't laugh, its happened.

On a rescue,get the victim to the surface as fast as possible while protecting his air way. Once on top,get his mask off and then the matra is tap-talk-blow. Tap on his face, talk to him calmly, and blow on his face below the eyes. There are sensors there that clue the body that it is in the air and its ok to breath. The rest of the matra has the same function.

The above is a very brief overview from a non expert. There is quite a bit of technique in doing a smooth rescue. Check out some more detail using the search function.

Connor

 

[Tony Babowicz]

I would say from experience that a calm, quiet voice is definitely the way to talk to a black out victim. Last year, in an effort to see where my limits were and in the company of two very good safetys, I swam dnf until blackout. Not samba or lomc, full on lights out sink to the bottom in the middle of a stroke blackout. I was awoke by a very calm voice letting me know everything was alright and it felt like I had just awoke from a long sleep.I can honestly say that if I was startled by a loud or aggressive voice, I would have panicked and possibly thrown an involuntary punch at my safety.
Practice and visualize for when the day comes that you need to be calm and reserved.

 

[drunkinbda]

sounds to me the way tony describes it, that its comparable to waking up in the morning.... alarm clock or radio.. which one do you prefer?

and no thats not meant to be scientific or anything.. just seems like a decent analogy.

 

[blueface]

Thanks for the input! When I had to do a rescue I was pretty excited and probably will do a lot better if I had to do it again. I was wondering if the rough treatment would prolong the unconsciousness somehow. In my situation I think that if I did the right thing-TTB he would have come around quicker and the whole incident would have been far less dramatic. I was in sort of a panic because I didn't understand what had happened and I thought he would die. Now I am far less afraid of it and would handle the situation better.

Skip

 

[sgnips]

sorry for my troubles with acronyms: what does TTB stand for?

thanks

 

[azapa]

tap tap blow

(as in on BO'd divers face, after removing mask, nose clip etc)

 

[sgnips]

that's clear, now
thanks again

 

[trux]

tap tap blow

actually I believe it is "talk tap blow" or perhaps "tap talk blow", but I incline to the first one: often it is sufficient alone to talk, so it should come first.

 

[azapa]

oops, you're right trux. thanks

 

[samdive]

in AIDA courses it's blow tap talk - but that's the same thing really

We teach you to speak calmly but firmly to the victim and use their name. Hearing your own name seems to cut through the fog of semiconsciousness and have more effect than not using it.

As someone who has been "awoken" both ways - I have to go for the calm option. When you're actually blacked out, you're pretty calm, in a warm happy place and to come round to screaming, shouting and slapping is pretty stressful - and makes a scary experience a lot more scary for all involved than coming around gently!

practice though - or you'll panic when it happens.

 

[sgnips]

Hi sgnips,
The acronym (TTB) is actually Tap-Talk-Blow. I've seen it in many safety articles.

thanks again

 

[cebaztian]

More input:
How to handle a freediver suffering from blackout

BTT - I think the abbreviation first was used by Kirk Krack.

SSS (smack, smack, smack) was inroduced by the AA safetydivers at Ibiza WC 2002 ;-)

Sebastian

 

[bubbleless]

I have observed a couple of things as a medic.

One diver, who suffered quite a bad BO - Finished his SP 20 minutes later. He had regained conciousness, everyone who was around him was calm, and although he was back with us and talking ( albeit his 02 sats were very low even on O2 at 6l pm, resps were low and BPM was a little irratic) , he wasn't fully alert, not until something in his brain triggered, and remembered where it last left off, - spuring him into doing his SP on a beach wondering why we were all grinning at him, and saying " no your not" after he had finished saying" I am ok"

In contrast, a diver who blacked out mid stroke in a pool had a harsh ride to the surface as his safety pulled him up by his neckweight, was then moved poolside in a pretty rough and tumble mannor, where his mother was screaming out hysterically, " oh my god [insert divers name here] oh my god ( apparently dad was about to punch out one of the judges who wouldn't let him through to get to his sons side) - needless to say things were rather rowdy and stressful. This diver was unconscious for an unusual period of time, AND started to seize. This particular blackout was probably worsened by the pressure created on his trachea and carotid arteries etc by being dragged up by the neck weight, but is the only black out that I have been present for that exceeded 40 seconds, and took the diver quite some time to show full signs of recovery ( peripherally shut down for 15 mins or so while on O2)

So - from my experience I would say the calmer the rescue, the better the experience would be for all, and the easier the brain, which is still active, as mentioned above is subconsciously able to process sound and sensation, can recover.

I suggest practicing as much as you can, this doesn't mean going out and waiting for blackouts to happen. My partner and I practice recovering each other from the bottom of the pool, rendering TTB at the surface, moving each other to the side of the pool ( while the other plays dead - good thing about apnea - you get pretty good at this bit!:t ) at least once a week, when we have had to recover divers, we do so with much more ease and calmness than we did when we first had to do it.

 

[blueface]

bubbleless,
Thanks for the post. My partner also had a bad blackout out. He kept going in and out of consciousness and he wasn't fully alert until quite a long while later. He seemed drunk. The doctor said his O2 sats were dangerously low (whatever that means) and the whites of his eyes appeared to have broken blood vessels much like he'd been strangled (saw it on medical detectives). What do you mean (SP)? Surface protocol?

Thanks!

Skip

 

[bubbleless]

Hi Skip

The doctor said his O2 sats were dangerously low (whatever that means)

What he is referring to is the amount of oxygen that is being carried by the red blood cells. Ideally it should be 94% or higher ( depending on the protocol you want to follow - some call for 97% and higher).

and the whites of his eyes appeared to have broken blood vessels much like he'd been strangled (saw it on medical detectives).

My husband gets that after doing deep dives or long dynamics quite often, they are pressure points that can happen as a result of a large contraction ( amongst other things)

What do you mean (SP)? Surface protocol?

Yes thats what I meant :t

 

[blueface]

bubbleless,
Thank you very much for the response! I'm going to call my friend to find out what the exact percentage was. I think if I had been more calm he would've responded better. The waves crashing over us and trying to keep the airway clear of water was difficult. It was a pretty rough day. I got frustrated and very impatient. Fortunately we never get too far from our boat because the current in our fishing spots shift often and get really strong so we watch it very closely.

Thanks!

Skip

 

[cdavis]

Very interesting(and entertaining) post, bubbleless, thanks.

The low 02 stats following blackout are something new to me. I assume this means 02/hemoglobin saturation measured by a finger sensor or similar? Does anyone know the mechanism behind this low 02 phenomena? Why would not 02 saturation in hemoglobin go right back to 98-99% very quickly after the start of breathing? Might the delay explain why some divers, after a BO, feel really crappy for a few hours?

Thanks

Connor