Restrictions regarding suits in DNF

[B-J]

This is something I`ve been thinking of lately. Here`s my thoughts:
Let`s say a person want`s to do a recordattempt in DNF. (I swear; I do not have such plans) He finds a 25m pool with very cold water, so he can wear a ridiculously thick and buoyant suit. In this way he can add at least 15 kg extra weights. This might very well be effective for some but this can not be the direction we want our sport to go in?!
In Ironmancomps they set a maximum to 5mm suits. Maybe this would be the way to go in DYN and DNF?
Please let me hear your thoughts...
Bjarte

 

[DivingDane]

i dont believe we need to fix the suit style as well, i'm not interested in going down the FINA swimming route of banning progress!

everybody has access to thick suits and weights and should be welcome to use them.

if we limit this then surely it is an unfare advantage in DNF for a person to be 7ft tall over a 5'6" divers as he can puch off the wall and glide further his arms are longer so can potentially move more water. so do we then have differenet catagories for that too?

not being argumentative but i dont believe liomiting the evolution of the sport is right. who's to say that wearing a 15mm suit with lots of weight is an advantage? sure the glide is potentially much longer but the streeamlining in said suit would be much more difficult and require more energy, the extra weight requires more energy to get moving again.

so i think it should be up to the diver as to what he/she believes is their ideal setup for the sport.

DD

 

[B-J]

Do you really think this issue relates to a person being tall or not? It`s not like they have different leagues in basketball for short peoplerofl
I`ve seen guys stuff some "foam material" in their swimsuitlegs to keep their legs from sinking. Very good to get perfect balance. But... if I stuffed my orcasuit with lots of this, it would not affect my hydrodynamics much, but I would greatly benefit from this. I would REALLY be very happy if I didn`t have to do this. That would be alot of time and energy spent on something I find stupid. And what if it shows that a 15mm suit is the most effective? Maybe the future of poolcomps will be outside in the winter. Good news for the scandinavians! Would that be good for the sport? What if someone did an "unbeatable WR" like this?

 

[trux]

Or perhaps you could even built a really hydrodynamic suit with plenty of foam and a lot of lead - having both huge momentum after the push off, and good hydrodynamic shape, so that you could do the entire pool lengths with no other propulsion.

Look at this one from fursuit: Dolphin suit ideas and layout rofl

​

 

[DivingDane]

no such thing as an unbeatable world record! we have had 100 of unbeatable records in sports over the years all to be proven wrong.

what i was saying that it if you wanted to reduce unfairness in nofins then the taller the person the less distance in regards to body length need to be covered. this is an advantage that cant be overcome, but suits everybody has access to so have an equal chance to use.

at the end of the day as said above, does having 15kg e.g of extra weight really benefit the dive? i'm sure there will be an optimum weight for DNF or DYN surely continiously adding weight is not the key as eventually the effort required to begin the movement would out way the advantage of the glide.

and if bouyancy is really an issue and we should limit suits then we should also ban packing as somebody with a lung volume of 15L is going to have a huge advantage over somebody with 7L.

there are so many aspects to bouyancy, but i still dont believe that the largest amount of weight will be the most beneficial way to dive in DNF,the enrgy to move such large amount of weight would be quite large.

so basically all i am saying is that nothing should be banned or segregated.

again just my opinion.

 

[B-J]

Trux, you made me change my mind! We have to allow dolphinsuits. That would be awesome for the sport!!:fridayImagine a WC-final with 8 dolphin-athletes going at the same time.

 

[mortenkv]

I agree with you, B-J. It concerns me a bit what kind of equipment you can have and use for your performances... Sebastian wrote an article about the same concerns... apnea tests

EDIT: This is related to STA

Next person going for a world record I would suggest using the following:
Huge mask. Walkman stereo with calming music (classical baroc music is said to have an effect on us). Maybe some kind of hypnosis program that puts you in a deep state until its time to wake up. During the last minute I suggest your coach puts you a lot of questions that has to be answered with signs. Fail one or two - bail out. I also suggest you use a pulsemeter and stop when you reach the point when you usually are low on oxygen. And - since it is not officially forbidden - hook yourself up to a oxymeter and stop when you reach the levels when you usually loose it.

My question is of course - how much "help" should be allowed.

Freediving should remain "free" and preferably not (too) costly on the equipment side...

On the other hand - I dont like too many rules...

 

[trux]

I think a change of rules is not really necessary. Most of the equipment changes have also negative effects. From the ones quoted in Sebastian's article, none would be really helpful - huge mask will have big drag, and big buoyancy change in the depth, I doubt a too big impact of a mp3 player, oximeters and pulse meters are forbidden. And if somebody comes with a really strange setup clearly improving his performance (i.e. the dolphin suit rofl), we already have a general paragraph in the rules allowing the judge to disqualify such performance, or other competitors to submit a protest.

EDIT: That told, a mask should be definitely forbidden for statics, on my mind. Maximally goggles with a nose clip.

 

[cebaztian]

Hi

My example was regarding STA (huge mask=extra oxygen).

The swimsuits (forbidden for swimmers) will give you +5% at least.

Bjartes example with added momentum is also very beneficial. Sietas did it and set a WR. But it was not unbeatable (you beat it Bjarte .

There is LOTS to gain in working on the hydrodynaics and momentum! But most freedivers seem to not bother, which is kind of nice.

I guess as long as you feel you can improve technique and physics you train on that.

Sebastian

 

[mortenkv]

Hi

My example was regarding STA (huge mask=extra oxygen).

Yes, sorry for not beeing clear on that.

My point was just that if we dont have any rules telling us not to do it - then "we" will continue strolling down "equipment-lane" trying all sorts of possibilities out. That will surely lead to new inventions as it has done before...

 

[trux]

I experimented little bit with adding more weight, but found that there is certain sweet point after which the disadvantages overweight the advantages. So in fact I use just the weight I really need. However, it is true that with specific training, you could probably use the advantage of heavy weight better, but there are some limits to it anyway too.

 

[B-J]

Trux: What kind of disadvantages did you encounter? And what was your "sweetspot?"

 

[trux]

You need more force to get the momentum - it means you need to use more force at the push-offs and at strokes, leading to less relaxed style and more oxygen consumption. As I wrote, this could be probably overcome by some training. The next disadvantage is the surfacing - if you have a too heavy neck weight, you'd need to drop it before surfacing. Next disadvantage is that with huge weight compensated with thick wetsuit, you have the disadvantage of the thick wetsuit. This could be eliminated with some floats on the parts of the body, where it does not disturb (or even where it improves the drag), but then you have also the disadvantage of having more complicated buoyancy control. So at long swims, when your body buoyancy drops, you would sink faster than without the heavy load. You would need to use non-compressible floats.

EDIT: Well, that told, I think we can wait with the banning till it becomes a real problem. And even then, I'd be interested how far one gets with such equipment, so perhaps it would be better splitting the discipline into two - a natural one (with no or very limited equipment), and a free one (without any restrictions).

 

[DivingDane]

agreed trux!

i also find it interesting that we should act before people start to "go down Gear lane"
WE ARE ALREADY THERE!!!!, EU$500 hyperfins, supersmooth skin suits, compression swim skins, more hydrodynamic goggles, Fluid goggles the list goes on.

these are already very technologically advanced products why shoudl we not also ban these then? evolution in weights, wetsuits etc is no different to the above.

however i do agree that it would be great to have to catagories:
- PURE : no equipment just normal bathing suit
- FREE: standard rules.

DD

 

[trux]

In fact Sebastian Naslund already "invented" a "new" discipline he calls UFC = Unassisted Freedive (Competition), it is basically CNF with just swimming suit and optionally a nose clip. You can compete in UFC in the coming days at the comp of Bizzy Blue Hole. I added the discipline to my ranking too, along with some other non-AIDA disciplines like 16x50, Jump Blue, and Skandalopetra. You can see some previous results here:

http://apnea.cz/ranking.html?UFC

Plenty of opportunities for new world records!

 

[DivingDane]

yeah I knew about Sebs new dive style, it looks very nice, i just hope that it becomes a dedicated and recognised disciplin in its own right.

thanks trux for the list, hopefully get to do my first Skandalopetra dive in Rhodes in June. very excited!

DD

 

[samdive]

well we go "pure" and then there is the question of "what is a normal bathing suit?" - at a UK comp last week I was one of only very few athletes in normal suits - lots of people are now in the fancy swim racing suits that olympic swimmers use.... should we ban those too? (I don't think so - well at least only until I can afford one!)

 

[B-J]

I believe that the price issue is important to consider, but I don`t believe that there is a problem in freediving. In the WC I used equipment worth about 550€. A top level suit and monofin might set you back 1000€, but thats nothing compared to other sports. (cycling, crosscountryskiing etc)
A few years ago someone started to develop a new speedskating suit with better aerodynamics. It had lumps behind the calves, on the back as well as a dome on the head. They (ISU) realized the advantage and banned it.

Racing suits shall conform to the natural shape of the body of the Skater. Insertion or attachment of forms or devices to create different shape is not permitted.

Why? Well...why would they want people spending alot of time developing these suits that only a handful can use? If you gave the best athletes this suit everyone would go a little bit faster, but you would probably have the same guys winning the races. I also believe the athletes were happy not to use the insanly stupidlooking suits:friday
My opinion here is that the freedivingathletes should state that they don`t want to have to wear these modified suits. We could discuss alot whether it`s an advantage or not but better hydrodynamics IS a huge advantage. If someone becomes a WC because of a suit like this, it would be too late and definately not good for the sport.

 

[trux]

Bjart, I basically agree with your arguments, but as I wrote, we already have a paragraph in the rules, allowing the judge to forbid equipment he/she considers unfair, or to disqualify a freediver using such equipment. It may well come time when it needs to be specified better, and not let only on the subjectivity of the judge, but I think it is still too early to start adding complicated rules trying to define what is permitted and what not. The problem is that people are inventive, and when you create a set of rules defining equipment, they will find a loophole in it. I think that at this moment, when such suits do not exist yet, it is better to have (and use) this general rule in case of some blatant abuse.

So this is what I meant by telling we have time to cope with the problem once it appears. At this moment we do not yet know what exactly we can expect, so it might be premature to start defining the equipment restrictions. We should just rely on the common sense of the judges, or start protesting when we see such apparent equipment abuse - the rules definitely count with it, so why not use them, instead of making them more complicated.

 

[B-J]

I clearly see a potential in improving my hydrodynamics (and momentum) with insertions in my suits. But what you`re telling me is that if I do this I might get disqualified in a competition if a certain judge feels like it?! That sounds horrible! I don`t think a rule would have to be very complicated either.
If you want the sport to stay simple I don`t think we should add any more diciplines. It`s enough with 6+2 It`s allready complicated enough to explain the diciplines to someone outside the sport.