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Riffe enclosed track for Metal Tech is coming out REAL soon !!!

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Mr. Long Post
Apr 22, 2002


4 those who wanted to own a Riffe Metal Tech with enclosed track for 9/32 ( 7mm ) and 5/16 (8mm ) shafts, it seems this month they will release it.

You can also buy "enclosed track insert only" for a very very decent price. So older Metal Tech owners now has a new toy to install.

So you guys with enough skill building ur own gun will not need to pay US$200 ( I think ) for a Kitto Derlin enclosed track kit, if you want an enclosed track in ur gun. I think the Riffe EC track is some other kind of plastic, not Derlin. I am sure it is not machined out of blanks like Kitto ones and thus it must be a injection molded type..... mass produced = reasonable price. With the quantity Riffe is selling the M-Tech, I am sure injection molded polymer it is.

The rumors is that, the enclosed track benefit most for guns longer like MT3 ( 127cm ) and longer ones ... up to MT5. Shorter shaft less whip.

I am just wondering about those guys who love 7mm Hawaiian shaft. What will it be like shooting one on the MT3 and having 3 x 5/8 bands propelling it on the enclosed track ? I think the fish has no time hearing the powerband shockwave and they already become the victim. I guess the recoil produced by this mini shaft must be decent.

Dear Iya you can`t use three 5/8 power band on 9/32 hawaian shafts. It will be overloaded and it will not be accurate even using enclosed track.
Dear Murat,

Let me seduce my MT3 friend to buy the 9/32 ( 7mm ) enclosed track kit and see what happened. I kind of think it should be OK. The RA Railgun uses 16mm x 2 rubbers same as 5/8 x 2 and no enclosed track. They are supposed to be very accurate at this power setting. They called it RailGun cause it has a continuos shaft groove, unlike other Euro guns that mostly has minimal shaft support here & there. All the Riffes are already using it but they call it shaft groove/track not rail.

So judging from other 7mm shafted guns on open track design being succesful at 16mmx2, and the Riffe Competitor series at 2 x 14mm ( some guys uses 3 x 14mm ) . I think 16mmx3 with the assistance of enclosed track is not too much to hope for.......... I hope. :D :D

The EC Track kit is cheap but damn the shipping:waterwork

I just love the sound of fast shaft shooting out of a gun..........wisshhhhhhh !!!

At least now if I ever decide to make my own gun, I know how to source a cheap enclosed track, ready to use.

Good luck to you to seduce your MT 3 friend and report me the developments plz.
Hey IYA...found any pics of this enclosed track MT?
Not to want to throw a bucket of cold water on the subject, but I've been pretty successful with using 4-5/8" bands, lengthened an inch, with a 9/32 shaft, cut so there isn't a great deal of overhang from the barrel.

This recipe is de rigure for fish on the fast and smaller scale where you absolutely want penetration from a distance. Rather like a safe relationship.

Anyone looking for a MT#4?

Hi Rig,

Maybe next week or two when they release it, I might get a picture from my friend. Now I show you how the OPEN TRACK insert is like.

First Photo : The left track ( inverted ) is the smooth part that will be placed/inserted on the gun, the base. The right track is OPEN TRACK as seen from above. It has the groove/track for ur shaft. Just like ur JBL shaft slider but this one thicker and not glued but inserted into the aluminum stock.

Second photo is the OPEN TRACK as seen from rear or front.

Sorry scanning resolution is quite tough for black color materials.
Now if you see second photo, the groove is like only half moon, an enclosed track will give you 75% circumference blanketing of the shaft, like those of Kitto's Derlin insert or Steve's Tuna gun.

I hope you get the idea. I got these two spare tracks for experiment but Damn !!, when received, only then I heard the enclosed ones coming out soon.



I must try the 4 x 5/8" with 9/32 shaft on my Standard #4. The last time I tried on Standard #2, but not with Riffe shaft, it was a Collins 7mm Hawaiian shaft, even at 3 x 14mm bands the shot were so low I get real confused. So I stopped testing. Now the Riffe original 50" x 9/32" Hawaiian Shaft I want to sacrifice for my pneumatic and I have not done extensive test with it on my #2.

01. Ur 9/32 using Hawaiian or threaded end and how much you cut away ?

02. Is the accuracy as good as 5/16" or 3/8" ? I bet the shaft lift off so fast the shooting distance ur getting must be at least still 8 meters effective from 4 x 5/8 bands on MT#4.

03. U are using the open track right ? I heard that Riffe has passed on some of their prototype enclosed track to a few seasoned boys............one of them might be you.:D

04. Why the hell people complaining about MT poor accuracy ? With the heavier weight I suppose they should shoot as good if not better than the teak sisters ?

OK enough question ;)

Thanks A Lot
So you use increase the length of the 5/8 power bands?.Why just didn`t use 9/16 power bands instead?(sorry if the question is too silly:duh ).If i am able to use 3or4 5/8 power band (without loosing accuracy) it will be great.This means at least 8 meter effective range if you think (3)9/16 power bands with 5/8 shaft range is 7 meter with 5/16 shaft.I know lighter shaft has less range but we are compare 3 or 4 5/8 bands with (3)9/16 bands.

BTW i sent mail to Jay Riffe about the enclosed track to gather the data from himself.

Question:``What is the differences between your enclosed track gun and ordinary gun?
Answer: ``An enclosed track means the shaft is encapsulated. Used by some who believe the can shoot more accurate. We built a limited edition gun called "Inertia", which is as large as our Blue Water model with the full leaded wings and enclosed track. We did not find a difference in accuracy. Because of the talk about the enclosed track and the need for a freeshafting gun, RIFFE has come out with an enclosed track for our Metal Tech series. This will be available shortly.

Note:Mail sent on 10 May.
Hi Murat,

U should add this to Jay Riffe reply :

"At over powered setting or extra plenty of rubbers, the enclosed track do help the thin 9/32 (7mm) and 5/16" (8mm ) shats. For 3/8" ( 9.5mm) it doesn't really help."

"Enclosed track benefits most for guns like MT3 and longer"

This is the reply my friend got. Anyway it does sounds very much like Steve Alexander finding. EC track helps to a certain extend for thin & long shaft if we bad dudes realy over power them, if not open track is just as good.

Anyway if I do get an enclosed track MT, I will let u guys know my finding. You know I am generous with information and photos and so on...bla...bla....bla :D :D but the only problem is, I might not be as a good shot as Jay Riffe. Wha ha ha ha.

Look at his hands, they are so big, damn the guy is huge, he definitely can absorb more recoil than me and thus more accuracy, more ballast...remember :D :D

No point speculating on the guns performance untill we try them extensively. Once you experience shooting a 4 x 16mm rubber, it is totaly different from even a 4 x 14mm. Anything shooting a 4 x 16mm rubber or more, deserve extra handling respect, I mean they are so powerful ( including the recoil ).

Our Sultan Sven is one of the lucky guy who has been shooting for so long and have owned so many guns, OK OK, he is 43 years old and have good size wallet to accomodate his hobby. He he he he. The good thing also, he lives in America, home of the upper end spearguns. No import duty, no hassle, only 7.5% sales tax ( I think ). He is the guy who can answer ur questions without speculating cause he has been thru (owned ) what you and I will go thru in the next 10 years.

Here is a brief history of my limited knowledge on spearguns :

I grew up with pneumatic, almost recoiless. I love them but they can't bear the abuse. So I upgraded to JBL Magnum, a 140cm+- with 3 x 12mm rubbers. They advertised 21 feet shooting range, so I thought this is it...... Riffe was not available yet back then in my city, I never even heard of Riffe cause internet was still in it very early days in my country. Since I am not familiar with recoil and band guns, I thought the JBL was a macho gun, after all it gave recoil, unlike my pneumatic.

I seen Canon, AB Miller and some of the Australian guns but since there are no dealers they end up in the garage eventualy. The most popular band guns were the Scubapro composite, 3 x 12mm band. Later comes the JBL Woody Magnum and JBL XHD series. I tried them all. The XHD was quite powerful, in fact very powerful for me because there is no other reference I can compare it with.

One day Riffe was introduced in my city. I took a look at it and my God , the retail price sounds like a highway robbery ( it was only 10-15% above US retail actually ). I thought that why the hell will you pay so much so just teak wood and some stainless steel. You see my country is one of the main producer of Teak wood, naturally I don't find them classy as most other guys, they are top of the line wood but since you see them so often you don't respect them. My Mom renovated the house and I could build a 500 medium sized Riffe from the teak we were using for the house. I was more of a metal guy, wood sounds so pre-historic. So I walked away from Riffe.

One day one of the guy ( Canadian ) in my group got a birthday present from a good friend, a mid-handle Riffe No Ka Oi with reel and Ice Pick. ( where can I find a friend like that :D :D ) This is still at the time my currecy was good and strong ( now it went down 400% ). I borrowed the gun and tried to load it, since I am a hip loader, I can't even see tabs to place the wishbone. It took me so much pain and time to load this gun. So I managed only to load 2 rubbers....wha ha ha...what a shame. I didn't know such thing as chest/stomach loading is suitable for mid-handle. So I aim at nothing/water and shot the gun, I noticed the butt was so close to my mouth, so I push my face away real far and WHACK !!!, DAMN the recoil even at two rubbers, I was using a single hand hold cause that is the way to shoot a JBL. HHHmmm, I don't like it. So my Canadian friend load all 3 rubbers and pass it on to another friend. Just like me, this guy shot with a single hand because he is JBL type shooter, guess what happened ? The butt of the gun smashed into his teeth...:D :D. So that was that and no one else in my group bought another Riffe or thinking to get one, after the incident. Also everyone was confused on setting the shooting line, pardon me, it was not as simple as a JBL. We even thought the line wishbone was a sissy because it was not mettalic solid like the JBL. So I guess we don't like to learn new ways and have improvement.

Our hunting area was lousy those days, what to do.....this is where we live. One day somehow we were told that there was an abandoned rig some 60 miles off our Marina.So we tried and the experience was amazing. We lost more shafts than landing the fishes, no cable back then. As usual and being my department, I changed all shooting line to cables. The result was improved catch. So we started eyeing the active oil rigs ( over 50+ ) and made plenty of dives over there ....untill one day the owners/security were waiting for us on the surface ( we were scuba-ing ) and wanted us to follow them to their nearby HQ ( on an island ) for interogation or something. So we said OK, you take your boat we take our boat and meet there............naturaly we full throttle all the way to 33 knots and ran away...Wha ha ha ha. The rig people did not pursue the matter further, cause it they want to find us , it was so easy for them, Jakarta boating circle is very small and my friend's big sportfisherman is so easy to identify. I guess they love to scare us only.

We learnt a lot from those rig dives because we were never exposed to so many fish in such a small perimeter, it was totaly amazing. We also learnt that since it was such a small area we can actualy hear all the JBLs shooting, they were noise makers with the slide rings and mettalic wishbone. The rig underwater sounds like having mini explosions from all our shooting. The main target was the Giant Trevalies, all the way to 30kg. Plenty of red snappers too but none bigger than 5kg. There is always almost one big ugly grouper per rig, I don't know why. It was the best shooting in our entire life. If the snappers came in a school, they get so thick i once just aimed at them, not one of it, shoot and managed to get 2 in one go. It was sometime this easy.
Still the main event was the biggest Giant Trevaly, only 4 species we found on these rigs. Snappers, Grouper, GT and great Barracudas. The GT doesn't allow close shots and they swim up and down like crazy, what do you expect 6 or more scuba divers attacking a small 4 legged rigs. Anyway during these happy times was when we learnt that our JBLs were not a mini-canon we once thought they were. Very few shots managed to pass thru the gill on the other side of the fish, if the GT is big. We then believed that gill shot is the most fatal and will hold spearhead best. A slow learning process.

Our JBls were breaking apart then, XHD plastic muzzles were broken from its own rubber sling hitting home. Non XHD triggers were jamming up, all of the shaft slide ring hitting the shaft stop broke or jammed up. The Woody Magnum trigger pins were breaking the plastic pistol grip. Only my friends Riffe No Ka Oi was doing well, we can't even hear him shoot. He kept puching thru the GT gills without problem. That was when we decided we must buy the Riffe, it will not only improve the catch but it is cheaper to maintain in the long run and much more silent too, it was proven.

Anyway I wish to tell you more of this story but I just realized that my long post is crowding the DB forum and it might not benefit everyone so I need to stop here. Unless the further story is interesting for many......I need to sign out now.

IYA ;) ;)
I will be glad to listen the rest of the story.BTW did your No Ka Oi friend observe something strange on his gun.Such as tend to shoot low.Since you are Metal guy and pretty short MT3 is good for u.Actually there is not much difference between MT3 and No Ka Oi. No Ka Oi just has 3 feet longer range of course with little more impact power.As you and me mentioned before MT3 is likes more all porpuse gun.
Hello Young Murat,

I used to be a Metal Guy but ever since I saw how sea water destroyed all the aluminum JBLs, I stayed away from aluminum and fell in love with the "pre-historic" Riffe Teak stock. I told you we need time to learn, can't be knowledgeable in just a year or to or after one or two guns. I only like the Metal Tech because it was built far superior and thicker, that is also until I saw a friend using it .In the catalog/photo, aluminum is aluminum to me, quality doesn't show. This is why I kept telling you that Riffe Metal Tech is a class of its own in terms of construction. I handled plenty of good engineered products in my work, if I see a well built piece, I just fall in love with it. You must own one MT to appreciate... I mean at least ur friend own one...:D :D

No Ka Oi shooting low I can describe why because I shot them.

If you are currently a European gun shooter, or JBL or pneumatic or just any guns which are loaded under 200 pounds of rubber pressure.........and later you upgrade to a higher power like all the Riffes above 120 cm long and especially those that can be upgraded to at least 4 x 14mm bands or 340 pounds of rubber pressure or MORE, you take it for granted that the shooting style is the same........... IT IS NOT !!! This kind of experience you get only if u handle the gun long enough, borrow, steal, beg or buy one....... I don't care...just shoot them enough to know them well.

Also to note that MOST rubbers that comes with other cheaper ( I did not state inferior, I stated cheaper ) spearguns are "size for size" delivering less punch than a Riffe, a 3 banded 14mm Riffe kicks more than the average 3 banded 14mm of other brand. So the shooting discipline is rather different.

Band sizes found on other guns also create this misleading illusion of power. Look at Jeremy of Rob Allen reply in recent RA + PNG thread. He mentioned that 16mm x 2 is about the maximum recommended rubber pressure but at the same time he stated that 90-100kg rubber presure is an overloaded situation. The average guy uses about 45-50kg on a single band gun of 130cm.

This statement implies that RA 16mm rubbers is not producing enough pressure like the Riffes* ( *16mm = 110 pounds/50kg), if it does : 2 of RA 16mm will then already put it at the 100kg overloaded situation. If they stated 45-50kg on their average single band gun, is it the 20mm or the 16mm ? If I assume 20mm being the rubber, I then compare to Riffe 3/4" (19.5mm ) and I am getting 135pounds/61kg. Since RA do not state their own powerband in terms of energy, I suppose people think that ANY gun with 2 x 16mm doesn't recoil all that much.

At the same time anyone who has never been exposed to higher power Riffe or any other high power speargun will think that......look, 2 x 16mm is peanut, an RA or Omer has that. A JBL XHD has 16mm x 3. A Riffe with 4 x 14mm can't be that much different, so the shooting style must be the same. I wish. I wish.
We are assuming band quantity but we are not talking of the power, which is the main reason for recoil.

If you see the way Steve Alexander told of his enclosed track (old post ) , he mentioned power in pounds not the band quantity, this is a professional talking because he knows bands quality is different among the available brands. He wanted us to understand what he meant without extra head scratching.

Now if I tell you that my 30-06 Remington shoot accurately an "X" distance which you think sounds amazing. There will be two question, a non gun nut person will just nod and say really ? A gun nut will ask you what grain are you shooting, custom barrel, custom action and so on.

So my answer to that No Ka Oi question is that, who ever mentioned shooting low on the No Ka Oi ( based on original 5/16 shaft ) probably has not yet gain enough experience, either in higher power guns or the two hand hold a mid-handle gun requires. As Dr Wong put it to Chief Anderson (in summary ) :
" I guess you and I aim differently "

We know well that a decent amount of muzzle flip will occur, so learn how to live with it.

The worst part in most people is that they don't want to spend time learning their new gun because they kept comparing them to their previous ones. A heavy recoil gun is a different story altogether with a decent recoil units.

So I read in one or two forums that Metal Tech 3 is not accurate, this is why I want only Sven to tell us his own finding on his MT4. I don't want to make any speculation and most importantly I only want to hear from a respectable source which I personaly believe will give us honest opinion.

OK, I'm tired now :D :D

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