Role of Coach/Captain in Team Events

[samdive]

moving on from the live in Egypt thread....

This is morphing into quite an interesting discussion.... Having now been to several world cups - as athlete twice, captain once and judge once, I can see a real need for athletes to have a coach/captain who advises/helps and manages their performance in the way Sebastian describes in the Egypt thread - yet very few teams do this, and very few athletes welcome it.

I tried to as UK Captain/Coach in Vancouver but so many athletes are very self centred and private about their training, it is tricky to get people to talk openly about what they can realistically achieve. There still seems to be a lot of amateurish pride and secrecy about performance which is probably holding back freedivers from the benefits of real coaching.

I'd be very interested to hear of any countries where the captain/coach really does lead the team, take decisions on their behalf about inscribed depths/times etc and encourage maximum targets for team pool events - I know Loic used to do it for the French team and am sure Kirk has something similar going on but didn't see much other evidence - does anyone have more info on how their national (or smaller scale) teams operate with coaches?

Sam

 

[josedesucre]

I can give you an example, without using names: one country could have placed higher if not for a BO caused by a competitor trying to max his depth in CW. So the team lost more than 60 points, and the captain/coach was criticized for allowing that to happen instead of keeping the competitor within a safer goal. This is a real case from Egypt 06.

 

[cebaztian]

How much power should a team captain have? How should a team be selected? How much can be asked of them?

To avoid irritation and potential argue we had a very strict logical approach to team selction in Sweden. Basicly points from thrustworthy competitions (which in the end turned out to be mostly points from Aida ranking). 18 months old points were accepted.
Personally I would like to se a selection that also involved how stable the athlete is in delivering points. For example Bill had a 6.15 static result that he used as qualification for the team, I had a 6.29 result during the same period. The truth behind these figures is that Bill never has LMC's , I get one every second time in static. Who would you like to send to a national team? The stable athlete off course.

I would also like more recent result to be more influencial for the selection - a lot of ability can be lost in 18 months.
Most off all I would like to also weigh in the athletes intention to train the last three months. Who will have the time and money to peak.

All three factors are hard to mesure.

In the end many countries send the ones who can afford going. And since the athlete pays for his particiption - how can anyone demand anything from him?

Which leads us in to the team captains power. In Sweden as in other teams I guess the captains power as limited to what AP should be given in depth. In Sweden this was dealt with very straightforward - anything you done in the last training days/weeks -5 meters you could do in comp. (more experienced divers actually took of a bit less without anyone argueing with that).

Later in the comp it was decided that no swedish athlete could compete without a present coach.

HOW DID OTHER TEAMS HANDLE THESE ISSUES?

Would a new rule regarding AP in STA and DYN give more power to the Teamcaptain.
- Lets say you are forced to get the TAPS in static according to your AP. Would people announce 1 second then?
- Lets say you could not get more than 10-20 points above your AP in DYN. Would we see more realistic AP then?
With more realistic AP's and the Team captain in charge of AP this would give him more power.

Sebastian

 

[samdive]

The UK Team had an open discussion after training in Hurghada in which everyone said what they believed they could deliver. For some people this was something they had definitely done in the last few days, for some it was less than that to take into account nerves etc, for a couple of more experienced athletes, it was more than they had done recently as they had a history of "rising to the occasion". The total potential scores were added up and the team of 3 per sex were decided from a squad of 5 per sex by a secret ballot from the whole squad, based mainly on those declarations.

Personally, I don't agree with going for a PB or something you have not achieved within the last few days in a team comp and wouldn't encourage any of my athletes to do that - but it pretty much worked for the UK this time as everyone delivered just about what they promised, apart from a couple of unforeseeable BOs...and after those, we changed tactic and went for all out points rather than playing it safe in the pool disciplines, again after team discussion and agreement. This resulted in a National Static Record (which would not have been encouraged otherwise).

Our squad of 10 was selected in much the same way as the Swedish one - based on AIDA ranked performance in the last 18 months. Those who did not have a ranked performance could have a performance witnessed by an AIDA judge but only got 80% credit for the points for it. Next time around, I think the BFA would go for straight AIDA Ranked Performance as the witnessing thing got pretty complicated.

I'd also like to see a category added to selection along the lines of what the French called "comportement" - what you bring to the team other than sheer performance. There are some people who come along and do brilliantly but do nothing to motivate the rest of the team, in fact sometimes the opposite. There are others who may not be quite as high on the point scoring but probably increase the points gained by everyone else by encouraging, positive attitude and generosity of time given to safety diving, coaching and generally being there for the rest of the team. Even if this guy/girl ends up as the Alternate, it's worth taking them. Taking 5 per sex really worked for us this time as we had loads of coaches and buddies whenever we needed them - and it meant we could bring along some new people who had not seen a world cup before.

On the Pool APs - I am firmly in favour of more realistic announcements in the pool disciplines and will continue to push the AIDA Technical Committee on this. It is utterly bonkers that someone who is going for 9 minutes can post 1 second..... I would put in place a maximum that you can go beyond you AP in Static and Dynamic - say 1:30 in Static and 50m in Dynamic or even tighter than that. I also believe in the "new" idea of asking athletes to put their PB on the CW AP form - although I also know that many people lie for some crazy reason..... the Captain's role should be to discourage that kind of behaviour and push for honesty within their team.

All a learning experience though..

Sam

 

[laminar]

Sam and Sebastian,

I think by far the most controversial and team-splitting issue over the past few years has been selection, especially for countries that nominate 4 athletes to the team and then at the last minute select the 3 athletes who will compete in the competition itself. :duh

I know that some people feel it is a good way to keep people motivated to achieve their best. To me, it's the wrong approach, and fosters less of a team spirit and feeling of mutual support. I've seen it get ugly with my own eyes on several occasions. This is especially important when the goal is combined points and not individuals beating individuals.

It makes for a very unpleasant experience for the odd person out, especially when he or she pays to attend a competition and yet not get to compete in it. BTW, did alternates get to compete in Egypt as they did in Vancouver?

In my view, athletes put a lot of effort into training and qualifying for the team - especially peaking at the right time to make their selection. In countries such as Canada, we only have a few competitions with which to aquire points, often only 1-2 competitions before Nationals. Doing well in those comps is crucial and if you place in the top three, I believe that should count for something. Of course, previous performances should be a factor, but I also think that just because a veteran performer is reliable, that shouldn't keep someone new and needing international experience from getting a shot if they achieve a better result at Nationals or earlier in the year.

I know that having flexibility for team selection is helpful, but I feel that often that flexibility can be abused to go along with personal preferences, friendships, training styles, etc…

I think the coach should have the respect of the team members in many ways… so the selection of the coach is as important as the selection of the team. Otherwise, the team won't listen to the coach's recommendations. I feel that the rules for team selection should be more formal with some room for flexible, rather than completely flexible with only weak guidelines. The latter format makes it very hard for the sport to grow and for athletes to feel confident in the process - that their hard work will give them an opportunity to compete.

BTW, I am not specifically talking about Team Canada here.

And as for the coach telling the athlete what to do, again being a coach that elicits respect from each athlete is a big factor. And to be such a coach, you need to have experience as an athlete, good ideas, a supportive personality and a plan. But like they say in hockey, once the player's on the ice, you can't stop him from cross-checking the other guy in the face!

Pete

 

[laminar]

Our squad of 10 was selected in much the same way as the Swedish one - based on AIDA ranked performance in the last 18 months. Those who did not have a ranked performance could have a performance witnessed by an AIDA judge but only got 80% credit for the points for it. Next time around, I think the BFA would go for straight AIDA Ranked Performance as the witnessing thing got pretty complicated.

Sam, would the BFA have selected a squad of ten for a Team comp if the competition was in Japan or Australia? (and the cost for each athlete to attend that much higher)

I think in terms of AIDA team selection there may be two very different scenarios when considering European teams and non-European teams.

What do you think?

Pete

 

[samdive]

For sure we wouldn't have taken 10 if it was more expensive to get there! We only had 3 girls in Hawaii and 4 of each in Vancouver.

Picking six out of ten once out there SOUNDED a great idea but was horrible in practise. What really amazed me was that whilst some of us bust a gut (and me, an eardrum) training hard to try and achieve some really strong figures in the few days we had before final selection, others just took it fairly easy, came out with "I reckon I can do" at the selection meeting and then made the team.... but I'm not bitter ; )..... it was pretty ugly though at times.

And no the spares didn't get to compete in Egypt (I ended up as an alternate) - even worse than that, we were not even allowed to go out and train away from the competition, even though we had arranged our own boats with a local dive centre and taken our own ropes and kit.... so we coached, safety dived,... partied and sunbathed... it wasn't all bad!

Next time around, I'd prefer to have pre-defined roles - with the alternate(s) definitely alternate(s) - i e they will ONLY dive if someone gets hurt and with anyone else with the right experience/attitude coming along as coaches and safeties - so still a big team, but with clearly defined roles before arriving at the event. And of course, with those coaching/safetying fully trained up to do that. We also had a few issues with some of those new to coaching not really being well enough briefed on what to do. That won't happen again!

 

[cebaztian]

The role of the coach.. some thoughts...

Did you know that at least two athletes got RED cards (WC2006) because they entered their warmup before 45 minutes. A silly way of losing a competition (and silly to give red cards for that violation - who would like to beat another team because they warm-up a few minutes more than you).

This rule and many more are the responsability of a coach to know. A nervous and/or body/mind focused athlete can violate many rules when they are in "freediving-mode". A coach can steer them through all these "fallpits".

It is a fact that you can get through SP even though your mind is in la-la land and your body is doing the electric boggie IF YOU HAVE A COCH verbally guiding you (and visually).
It is a fact that a coach can (with a tap) "wake-up" an athlete that is about to enter the dreamlike pre stages of LMC/BO i STA.
And if you still get the red/yellow card it is only the observant coach that can tell you if it is worthwile to protest or not.

And I havent even mentioned the primarily role of the caoch to do the talking for the athlete (keep fans at a distance and physicly put the athlete where he is suppose to be in every zone. And check the equipment and have spares handy e t c. Repeat a lowspoken countdown - Or demand a proper
countdown if that is not the case.

Performance freediving is not realy a individual sport I would say.

Sebastian

PS. In many other individual sports - trainers/coaches are not allowed during the competition - they have to sit outside the area (in the audience) and "wave their arms".

 

[AltSaint]

Adding to Sam's comments, from the perspective of a team member who did get selected, the athlete / reservist selection procedure was equally tortuous.

By far the majority of the team are people I know well, and all are good friends. So when one person is being cautious ( or even over-cautious ) with their estimates, how do you balance this against someone who is striving for performances they can't demonstrate in training? If you are not careful, then an objective decision becomes subjective, and this is not good in either a team situation or where friends are involved.

I took the objective approach, and took everyone's estimates at face value - if you said you could hit 55 metres, or you could only manage 55 metres - it was still 55 metres, and so it became arithmetic. As it turned out, all of the 'bold' estimates were met. But I felt my stomach gnawing at the end of the selection, as it felt unfair to those who were adopting a safer approach.

Although our reservists could not compete as individuals, they all put a lot of effort into coaching ( not just the UK team, but several other countries team's too ), and helping out the organisation with safety diving / organising training sessions / calling top times etc.

I know I appreciated this a lot, and would not have hit some of my performances without the good coaching I received.

If the choice was mine alone, it would be to select athletes / reservists before attending the event.

 

[cebaztian]

What about you other teams?
Selections? Teambuilding? Organized training?

Sebastian

 

[Evita]

A little bit on this subject and a little bit off:

I am all for stricter announcement rules in static and dynamic, and I hope that the proposal will be adopted by the AIDA Assembly.

We just have to remember that not all of us have designated coaches for competitions - that is, coaches who are not also competing. In static this means that one of us will make a very low announcement, even if our performances are similar, so there will be sufficient time (at least 30 minutes) between our OTs, allowing one to coach the other through warm-up and the competition dive, and then we switch roles.

With the new, stricter AP rules for pool disciplines, which I would welcome, could we imagine an extra 30 sec window on either side of the AP for those athletes who coach other athletes?

 

[William W]

Hi Everybody,

Sam I just wanted to comment on one aspect of your post :

"On the Pool APs - I am firmly in favour of more realistic announcements in the pool disciplines and will continue to push the AIDA Technical Committee on this. It is utterly bonkers that someone who is going for 9 minutes can post 1 second..... I would put in place a maximum that you can go beyond you AP in Static and Dynamic - say 1:30 in Static and 50m in Dynamic or even tighter than that. I also believe in the "new" idea of asking athletes to put their PB on the CW AP form"

I would like to offer you a different perspective...let me know what you think.

As an athlete I am in favour of continuing to subscribe what we would like to as it relates to competition in the pool. More often than not (as it was stated in another post) athletes are making their subscriptions based on the timing of their performance as it may relate to a friend or team-mate in an effort to be able to assist one another with the warm up and coaching. I often base my subscription on the overall start time of the competition and I try to come up with a subscription that allows me to compete at the best time for me on that day...it is part of trying to put in the best possible performance. I would like to suggest that instead of limits on us and putting a maximum on the performance how about having the athlete place on the subscription form the following:

Personal Best in Last 6 months.
Expected performance on that day.

This information could then be communicated to the safety divers who would then have a reasonable idea of what the athlete is going to do and so could act accordingly. At Worlds this year the judges for both my static and dynamic asked my coach what I was expected to do and once told they seemed fine with the difference between my subscription and my performance.

This of course would only be for the pool disciplines as the athlete is never more than a couple meters from the surface and the safety is never very far away.

With regards the original topic of this post: The role of the Captain or Coach in team events.

This is a difficult position to be in...how do you coach an athlete that you are not familiar with, that you have never trained with and that you do not really know? (I say this as I do not live in Canada and therefore do not train with anyone on the Canadian team.) It is very rare in this sport for athletes to actually have a coach. It would seem more common for athletes to have a training partner or friend that is closer to the role of Coach than any other person. So, to appoint a coach to a group of athletes every two years is a challenging proposition.

Either my wife or one of my training partners coaches me at competitions as they know my warm-ups and know what to look for in a performance in order to give feedback. It is difficult to know an athlete that you do not train with. With this in mind, I feel that in the Team competition the coach is more of a Team Manager/Coach, someone who must be flexible enough to accomodate the needs of 6-8 different individuals who usually do not train together. For me this year with Team Canada, Kirk was acting more as a manager, attending meetings etc., but for others on the team he was their coach. This allowed us the freedom to function in manner that would optimize our performances.

I would agree with Peter that the selection process that has 4 athletes attending and then in the last hours only choosing 3 to compete can leave some bad feelings behind. What if we selected 4 athletes to attend and all 4 were able to compete? Then the final team total was taken by adding up the best 3 overall scores.(not the best 3 static, dynamic etc but the best three overall individual point totals) This would mean that all of the athletes who had paid their way would get to compete and to prove that in fact they should be a member of the final 3. They would prove their worth within the actual competion.

Ok...gotta run.


Cheers,

William

 

[samdive]

OK - here's another idea on the static/dynamic subscription debate -

If the amount you subscribe is all about timing - what time you best perform, what time your teammates are likely to go etc - why not put a requested top time on the form together with an honest estimated performance?

OK not everyone will get their ideal but the organisers could do their best - and at least everyone would know what to expect safetywise on the dive.

anyhow this vote has run now and this bit didn't change yet....

S

 

[efattah]

What if we selected 4 athletes to attend and all 4 were able to compete? Then the final team total was taken by adding up the best 3 overall scores.
William

Interesting idea, but it has been tried before at the 1998 AIDA World Championships. Five athletes per team, but the lowest performing athlete was 'discarded' from the results. It created a huge problem, namely that everyone could push to the BO limit, and whoever was unlucky enough to BO was just discarded from the team's results... Many teams had 4 out of their 5 athletes black out.

I still believe that for a deep diving competition, each athlete should have 2 attempts (with one rest day in between). However, a black-out on the 1st attempt disqualifies the athlete and cancels the 2nd attempt. A black-out on the 2nd attempt disqualifies both the 1st and 2nd attempt results.

This system allows a diver who is feeling bad on the 1st attempt, or has an ear block, to turn early and try again a couple of days later. You are not required to make the 2nd attempt if you make your announced performance on the 1st attempt. You must announce the same depth for both attempts.

With this approach, there is no need for the classic 'break the eardrums for your country' philosophy, and it also makes competitions far more enjoyable, since there is much less stress on the athlete (knowing he has 2 tries). It also prevents the negative anchor of being forced to go all the way to the bottom on a day when you may be feeling terrible.

 

[OceanMan]

Good points Eric !

 

[Stavros]

On Eric's comments:
On the other hand on which of the major sports do athletes get more than one chance to perform at major national or international competitions?
In many sports there might be elimination heats but that is also the case in freediving individual championships...but in all cases only one performance counts.

On the matter of role of coach/captain and team selection:
Greek teams usually try to have a non competing coach/captain with them especially in team events. Team tries to train together from their selection to the actual event so they can get a feeling of each others training "rythms". Selection of the team is done by a competition technical committee of 3 non competing AIDA board members based on the athlete's performances during the 12 months prior to the event and in particularly performances nearer the actual event dates. Team selection takes place a few weeks after the last major national (Greek) competition prior to the international event. 3 competing athletes are selected and one spare (male/female). One final criterion of selection is which of the athletes can actually afford to go...so the committee goes through the list of athletes performances and selects out of those who are actually interested in going.

Cheers Stavros

 

[trux]

On Eric's comments:
On the other hand on which of the major sports do athletes get more than one chance to perform at major national or international competitions

Well, there certainly are some - for example AFAIK you have several attempts in light athletics jumping disciplines; second service in tennis; many team games use system where the team can fail miserably in several matches and get to the final anyway; and I am sure you could find more examples.

 

[Yogaman]

Eric, can't agree with you more - makes perfect sense.