"Safe" limits for a solo diver

[NicInKorea]

I know freediving should never be attempted alone. I also know I won't find a reliable buddy here...

What limits would be "safe". I know there are no safe limits for freediving, yet snorkel breath holders are as safe (safer?) than the bank of England.

There must be a grey area between diving snorkelers and free divers that is safe enough for the solo diver.

My targets are a dynamic 2 minutes with a max depth of 20 metres. Is this conservative enough? Any safe limits will not be exceeded.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ThomasB]

To me it sounds pretty risky. IMHO off course.

 

[NicInKorea]

This is the norm for old Korean ladies who collect shellfish, octopuses and seaweed. They do it with no real training, modest equipment and they do it every day. Often I've seen them working alone.

Most of them are past retirement age!

12-20 metres is their normal working depth with 60 secs being a short dive. These ladies have done it for hundreds of years in "relative" safety.

I'd be diving better kit and I have a very efficient finning style.

 

[Simos]

This is the norm for old Korean ladies who collect shellfish, octopuses and seaweed. They do it with no real training, modest equipment and they do it every day. Often I've seen them working alone.

Most of them are past retirement age!

12-20 metres is their normal working depth with 60 secs being a short dive. These ladies have done it for hundreds of years in "relative" safety.

I'd be diving better kit and I have a very efficient finning style.

Hi Nic - in my opinion you are already in danger as you have the wrong mindset for freediving safely. Seeking to come up with 'safe' limits is a pointless exercise - and for sure a 2 min dynamic dive is not the same as a 10 second duck dive while snorkelling.

I wish there was an 'easier' answer, I've been in a similar position countless times when on holiday and I had to stick to snorkelling.

 

[manalive!]

Hi Nic,

You'll be fine with those dives, assuming that you are an old Korean lady, who has been doing it all your life, also probably started diving as a child. You fail to mention the ladies that are now dead due to black outs whilst diving to 20 meters alone.

Sorry to be sarcastic, but I'd say you're looking at diving well within the danger zone. Out of interest what is your experience and ability?

Could you not dive with the locals (old ladies)?

 

[NicInKorea]

Hi Nic,

You'll be fine with those dives, assuming that you are an old Korean lady, who has been doing it all your life, also probably started diving as a child. You fail to mention the ladies that are now dead due to black outs whilst diving to 20 meters alone.

Sorry to be sarcastic, but I'd say you're looking at diving well within the danger zone. Out of interest what is your experience and ability?

Could you not dive with the locals (old ladies)?

30 years of snokeling, 26 years a certified diver, 7 years a PADI instructor (MSDT/EFR) with my own club. I'm pretty good with a BBQ grill too.

 

[Simos]

30 years of snokeling, 26 years a certified diver, 7 years a PADI instructor (MSDT/EFR) with my own club. I'm pretty good with a BBQ grill too.

I don't want to refer to events of the last few years individually because of the sad nature of each event but it has been proven again and again that freediving/spearfishing alone is risky, regardless of experience Nic.

I'm not hugely experienced myself but the reason I think you are in a risk group is that while you have lots of diving experience it's not freediving specific - it's not that freediving more would have made it safer but had you experienced a number of blackouts yourself or seeing others have them, you'd have seen how unexpected they can be and with no warning.

It's impossible to say '20m' is safe enough etc - no two days are the same, no two dives are the same. Your body is not the same every day - one day with your blood pressure being out of the norm is all it takes for you to pass out. I've seen this in the pool - 1m of water and with a bit of messing about and exercises underwater, you see the occasional LMC or BO. Interestingly every person I've seen in trouble didn't seem to think they were pushing themselves.

Surely chances are statistically low and you might even be lucky enough to be in trouble only once in your freediving career spanning many many years but if you are alone on the day, the price to pay is too high to be worth it at least for me.

By the way - you might say that surely statistically the risk reduces so much at some 'time/depth' that it becomes 'acceptable' compared to risks you happily accept daily and you will be right. However, apart from the issue of an 'off' day, if you are diving alone you'll never be able to know what this time/depth is without risking your life. This is excluding other factors like being hit by a boat, caught in a line, banging your head while underwater or getting a bad cut etc

Sorry if it sounds a bit much but since you asked for opinions, we need to be real with the answers, especially in a public forum!

On this subject, take a look at this: http://freedivingsafety.org/EN.php - launched by some of the world's best freedivers, perhaps the signature list at the bottom will convince you

 

[NicInKorea]

Thank you Simos for your comprehensive and honest answer. I did follow the link in your answer. It was very sobering.

I teach and occasionally use Nitrox which comes with a real BO risk from oxygen toxicity. I do solo dive (with redundant air source) but I'd never dive Nitrox alone because of it's unreasonable risk.

Funny thing is I'm pretty good at snorkeling. My dynamic time target is not far from what I can already do with no O2/CO2 table training. 20m is much bolder than I've tried to date on a single breath.

I'm really sorry there are no safe limits once O2/CO2 table training starts. I guess I need to change my summer project.

 

[NicInKorea]

Hi Nic,

You'll be fine with those dives, assuming that you are an old Korean lady, who has been doing it all your life, also probably started diving as a child. You fail to mention the ladies that are now dead due to black outs whilst diving to 20 meters alone.

Sorry to be sarcastic, but I'd say you're looking at diving well within the danger zone. Out of interest what is your experience and ability?

Could you not dive with the locals (old ladies)?

I needed to read your post a few times to get the message. I'm a bit slow ^^

The problem with buddies here is that westerners are exclusively US military, teachers or engineers. Most are on a 1 year contract or less. I've found plenty of good buddies over my decade here only to lose them through their work commitments. It gets frustrating...

I've dived and rock climbed with Korean clubs and honestly (I don't want to be mean because Korea has been good to me) Koreans are both reckless and fatalistic when it comes to extreme sports. I really wish it wasn't true. It's probably due to a mix of a military mind-set mixed with Confuscianism, and a little "face" added.

One thing I don't get. Experienced free divers talk about being in the danger zone. Surely a zone has limits.

All that said, I'm getting the message. I'll try to hunt down a buddy or failing that take a course in PI or LOS.

 

[trux]

One thing I don't get. Experienced free divers talk about being in the danger zone. Surely a zone has limits.

Yes, of course, you are right, there is a safe and a danger zone. And they have their limits too.

The only problem is that they are never the same and changing all the time with countless of factors and change from one dive to another, and that you never know in advance where the limit is. If you have a buddy or are very lucky, you perhaps learn where the limit was after crossing it, but if there is nobody to help you, there is relatively small chance you survive it.

As Simo wrote, there are many dead freedivers, some of them belonging to the very top elite, who were experienced and believed they knew well their limits, and took the risk to dive alone. Now they rest in peace as a memento for us others.

So having a buddy is the best way to reduce the risk, but then again simply having a buddy who has no experience with freediving safety or who does not watch you closely, is not of a big help. His role may be then reduced on calling the coast guard to recover your body.

I know that those who did some serious freediving training and/or participated on competitions, and know how easy it is to black out without seing it coming, they are much more hesitating to dive alone.

Still, there are and there always will be people freediving alone. This topic was frequently discussed here on DB, and you will find plenty of threads advising how to limit the risks. The best one is and always will be a knowledgeable buddy, but you can avoid different mistakes, or learn habits that may save your life. Also the Freediving Recovety Vest may help protecting your life (although it is not a buddy replacement!). Avoding hyperventilation, using a float, hydrating well, learning to release the belt buckle keeping it in hand on the ascent, and many other advices were discussed in other threads that you will find in the archive. So if you decide diving alone, leep on mind that you will not avoid the serious risk, but that there are ways to prevent unnecessarily increasing it.

 

[Jon]

I would much rather dive nitrox/trimix/deep air solo than freedive solo- actually, I've done it all solo. :head

If you think BO is a possibility while diving opencircut on nitrox than you shouldn't even be thinking about solo freediving.

Of course, I also understand how hard it is to find a decent buddy to dive, and train, with. Even if you have a great buddy, it becomes hard to stick with them when spearfishing. Sometimes you can start out with the best of intentions, but "solo happens"- especially when spearfishing.

If you look through the various threads on the subject you'll find all kinds of ways that people decide what they consider safe. Some will rely on a certain percentage of their max depth or static. Others will count contractions- if they even get contractions. Others will vary how far they push things depending upon how good they feel and how calm/clear the water is.

The only recommendation that I've ever found was in a DAN report and quoted a USN diving doctor who seemed to think you could get away with most anything as long as your dives were less than a minute. Depth and breath up patterns didn't seem to matter to him as long as you were back on the surface in a minute. I can't recall the name of the book, but maybe if you head on over to the DAN website and look up their publications on freediving.

Your other option is to look into one of those freediving safety vests. I like the looks of them, but I could pretty much buy a rebreather for the cost of one- which is why I still don't have one.

 

[Simos]

If you look through the various threads on the subject you'll find all kinds of ways that people decide what they consider safe. Some will rely on a certain percentage of their max depth or static. Others will count contractions- if they even get contractions. Others will vary how far they push things depending upon how good they feel and how calm/clear the water is.

The only recommendation that I've ever found was in a DAN report and quoted a USN diving doctor who seemed to think you could get away with most anything as long as your dives were less than a minute.

This is just personal opinion but I believe that by definition if you use a % of your max depth or static to define a 'safe' limit for diving solo doesn't make total sense. All these ways of thinking are flawed by definition (happy to discuss more if anyone's interested). In any case I could give you a pretty safe rule - say less than 2m max depth and 5 seconds max dive time - I am sure you wouldn't be happy with this answer as you'd feel I am being way too conservative. But you couldn't tell me and back it up where these 'safe' limits are so in the end you'll end up coming up with some arbitrary rule or % to dive to some depth or time you want to dive to and even worse, you will increase these limits as you advance in your freediving.

And regarding the 1 min rule, the 59 second rule is just a little bit better :t

Competitions aside, having a buddy doesn't mean that it's ok to not dive well within safe limits. The two are unrelated. It's a bit like saying 'my car's got an airbag so it's ok to drive at 200mph and possibly crash into a lamp post every now and then'. Of course that's not the case - you still drive safely so that you don't crash but should an 'accident' happen and you end up crashing, the air bag is there to (possibly) save you.

 

[cdavis]

Get very religious about not pushing your limits, or even close, and you will "probably" be safe from B0. Besides the fact that it is darn hard to stay religious all the time, "probably" and "sure" are two entirely different things. I participated in a rescue of a B0ed diver, very experienced guy, well within his limits, had no sense of stress, and did not see it coming (Jon's best buddy). There are no rules that work all the time, even something as limiting as the 1 minute rule can get you in trouble(personal experience) if you break enough other rules. Only time in my life I came close to B0, that I remember.

Of course, none of the above addresses any of the other nasty, sometimes fatal things that can happen to a solo diver.

Connor

 

[Apneaddict]

The question draws some parallels in my mind to:

"What's the safest way to play Russian roulette?"

 

[efattah]

The biggest safety factor in solo diving is the surface interval. Short intervals are a recipe for death. The safest method (if there is a 'safe' method), is to take 5 minute+ surface intervals and then do a short static apnea of around 1 minute on the surface, at the end of the interval, then take a few deep breaths and go. If you make a dive that accumulates lactic acid, then you need to take a 25 minute surface interval for maximum safety. Starting your next dive with any acid in your body is another recipe for unexpected blackout even from short/shallow dives.

 

[Sherrin]

Hello Nic in Korea.
I lived on Jeju for 7 years. As an ex commercial fisherman i took a great interest in the haenyo (or "jamsu" as they are called in sartori, the Jeju dialect).
I dived with the haenyo on many occasions. Indeed, i was the first Westerner to graduate from the Haenyo School.
Here's what i know:
At least one haenyo dies in the water every year. Also, they never dive alone. They don't equalise and they don't do breatheups. They don't spend double the time on the surface as they did underwater. They use really old fashioned gear and are really, really, negatively buoyant.
They all have horrible migraines, joint pain and ear problems (they all take painkillers before they dive). The government gives free medical to the haenyo.
It was an AMAZING experience to dive with the haenyo, and i was very priveledged. But i went to Thailand to take a course so i could learn how to do it safely.
I'm back in my own country now. Two days ago i lost a freediving buddy to the sea. He didn't dive with a buddy.
There used to be a freediving club in Seoul who did pool training. I don't know if they are still around but i can find out.
There are no safe limits when you dive alone.
Sherrin

 

[ReefTroll]

I've been racing bikes in one form or another for most of my life. All road. Damned good at it. Doesn't mean I'm about to jump onto a professional downhill course because somebody else can do it.

SCUBA and snorkelling are worlds apart from freediving, and experience is experience in regards to the older women. There have been top freediving athletes who have died in training, who had far more ability than those women. Nothing makes it safe.

 

[Kars]

Actually more ability could make it more dangerous. You'll be able to ignore the signs for longer. Take Sherrin's advice, do a proper freediving course. The things you learn there may safe you and or you buddy. Also since your country has a tradition in freediving, why not start a local club and or set out meeting the traditional young Haenyo. Surely they would like to see some more convenience?

Also bringing a monofin to a local pool, beach etc really gathers interest.


For the safety in pools I usually recommend to prevent any hyperventilation, and limit the dive to coming upon the first contraction.
Now with depth this does not work, because the sensations and responses are off and off cause it takes a much longer time to come up from depth.

Dehydration is another cause for BO's.

The grey area, is also deadly.

An idea could be to buy and use FRV, freediving recovery vest.

Have you explored your breath-hold limit? If you have not you don't know where your limits are, and have no idea how the run up to it feels. Even though you may know, the sensations and form of the day and moment can vary greatly. This variation makes the grey area very big and difficult to observe and respond to.

 

[Sherrin]

Hi Nic in Korea,
if you're interested in freediving in Seoul you can call Lee Han Young on
016-345-1665.:wave
Speak slowly and clearly and he can let you know what's happening.
Let us know how you get on.
Sherrin

 

[NicInKorea]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the posts. All were read very carefully.

Trust me, I don't think I'm any expert on apnea. I understand nitrogen narcosis, the effects of the partial pressures of gases, equalization and the hazards of entaglement and boat traffic. That's probably all that crosses over from scuba diving other than solid watermanship. I was just making the point that I wasn't 12 having just watched Le Grand Bleu on my Playstation ^^

It looks like I may have found an experienced training partner in Seoul. Previously I was all set to do this solo before reading your responses.

Again, thank you for all the feedback. You guys may well have stopped me becoming a statistic.