Samba: why do they happen?

[Phil C]

I have been noticing a worrying increase in my propensity to Samba.
3 years ago when I started doing long dynamics Samba's were things that happened to other people. The two times I pushed it too hard I blacked out. Now I seem to get a samba every time I attempt a max DYN/DNF.

I have a couple of theories that I would like to put out there for comment, but first some background:
My DNF PB is 132m (DYN 170m), This has not really improved much in the last 18 months and makes me feel something is wrong in my training. In the winter I train mostly DNF 2-4 times a week, mostly long swims, say 5 reps 85-100m then some technique stuff. I pack. I also play UWH and UWR 1-2 times/week. I do some cardio swimming/cycling. The pool I tend to train most frequently in is relatively warm 30'c+

Theory 1: The training emphasis based on "do long swims if you want to adapt to swim further" is flawed.
Theory 2: Training long swims in a warm pool is counterproductive.
Theory 3: I am overtraining (I especially like this theory)
Theory 4: My breathing technique has changed and I am now starting swims Hypocapnic/Hypercapnic (I don't know which causes samba).
Theory 5: My body is learning to Samba and It's learning to do it earlier through repetition.
Theory 6: I am less relaxed because I have a psychological/physiological memory of lots of uncomfortable long swims.

Any ideas/opinions out there?

 

[Will]

Hey Phil,
Your two problems, propensity to samba and no PB improvement, probably have the same motive: insufficient hypercapnic resistance. Because you can't tolerate high CO2 you are overventilating and becoming hypocapnic, meaning the DR doesn't fully install during the swim - remember how I said in Taupo that it is all decided in the breathe-up?

Try doing a max with no breathe-up, and I bet you won't samba. Now the trick is to breathe up in such a way that you get maximum venous O2 storage without reducing the CO2 in the body necessary for oxygen conservation. It's tricky - even 6 deep breaths a minute can be hyperventilation for some. Most of the long noisy, whistling breaths you see in comps or freediving classes are unnecessary. Ultra-shallow diaphragmatic breathing will maintain 100%SaO2 without touching CO2, and creates less O2 debt in breathing related muscles.

But I recommend that as well as breathe-up pattern you simultaneously improve hypercapnic base: 25m set departure pyramid interval training and exhale statics is the easiest way

 

[demasoni]

Will,

Don't mean to hi-jack the thread here, but the no breathe up principles you talk about are really interesting, especially since the freediving schools available to us in the USA promote very structured long breathe ups with lots of purges. Warm ups are also taught. So, actually, I have never really been exposed to this methodology before and I find it fascinating.

How would you apply this same philosophy to constant weight? If there would be a way to minimize samba and B.O. on full air just by altering the breathe up and go just as or deeper/farther as with "standardized" techniques, that would be a gold mine. I assume though that the learning curve in the beginning may be quite steep and I would have to increase hypercapnic tolerance?

 

[Mullins]

I completely agree with Will on the minimal breathup thing. I haven't taught students so I can only speak from personal experience but for me long, structured breathups are the best way to kill a dive. Josh, it is equally applicable to CW but can result in a fair bit of narcosis if you're going deep.

Phil, your training seems pretty similar to mine, I basically train with 60-80% reps all the time. The approach seems still to be working for me, though I don't do max swims in training so I can't judge all that accurately.

 

[trux]

I am aware of the method Will suggested (I learned it from him), and often advocate it. I am also aware of the methods taught by US freediving schools, and wondered about it too - you can find both of it in this thread: http://forums.deeperblue.com/freediving-science/77624-hyperventilation.html which contains some more interesting facts about breath-up and hyperventilation. As you can see in the thread, many top freedivers, trainers, and methodologists seem to recommend a very short pre-dive hyperventilation which influences the CO2 minimally while offering better venous oxygenation. Personally, I tend to believe and prefer Will's method with no hyperventialtion at all, and think that you can achieve high venous oxygenation even without any hyperventilation. The point is maximal muscular relaxation (minimal oxygen consumption) while trying to keep the heart rate high (maximal blood circulation throughput for better oxygenation of the venous blood). Unfortunately it is not really easy, but the no-warm up approach helps with the increased pre-dive heart rate.

I wanted to suggest Phil the same as Will, but did not really dared doing it, because Phil is a far better freediver than myself, and I am nothing than just an Internet freediving-theorist, whose word does not have any weight, but am happy Will wrote it.

As for the question whether the method is suitable for CWT as well - of course yes.

Otherwise, the hypercapnic resistance is a little bit problematic issue. I saw a study showing that freedivers do not gain any hypercapnic tolerance with training - in simulated tests with CO2 artificially added to the breathing gas, they gave up at the same levels of CO2 as non-freedivers, which was very surprising, but on the other hand it does not reflect the real dive scenario perfectly - the level of CO2 in lungs grows quickly only briefly, and then practically halts - the CO2 is rather cumulating in blood and tissue. However, the physiological hypercapnic tolerance is questionable.

On the other hand, what makes a giant difference is the psychological tolerance and response to hypercapnia. If you are used to cope with high CO2 and realize that it is something precious that helps you getting further, it has entirely different effect than when after getting couple of contractions, you think you are going to die and start panicking, contracting muscles, and involuntary speeding up. So the hypercapnic tolerance is more about coping with the hypercapnia psychically, than about physiological resistance.

In contrary, unlike at CO2, with training you gain lactic acid tolerance. The more you train anaerobically, the more you get used to lactic acid, and the muscles learn buffering it more. And that's important for max performances of course too, and in fact also helps coping with the hypercapnia.

 

[demasoni]

Thanks for the info Trux, very informative thread on hyperventilation.

I completely agree with Will on the minimal breathup thing. I haven't taught students so I can only speak from personal experience but for me long, structured breathups are the best way to kill a dive. Josh, it is equally applicable to CW but can result in a fair bit of narcosis if you're going deep.

You get any contractions on the way down on a CWT dive? I ask because I was taught contractions on the descent are indicative of a dive that should be aborted or at least a sign to be cautious and turn early. Do any warm-ups?

 

[Mullins]

Yes, a couple of contractions on the way down. I do 2 FIM exhale warmups, but based on what I know from DYN they actually reduce my performance a little. I do them because I don't get to practice CW much, so I need to ensure my chest is flexible enough and I can mouthfill without being uncomfortable and tensing up. Hopefully I can stop doing warmups for CW this year...

Phil, are you resting for a few days before you do your max swims?

 

[jome]

About the "no co2 tolerance" thing. I don't think the best way to measure that for freedivers is breathing gas that has co2 added into it. What we're interested in and training for is co2 tolerance on breath hold, not while breathing. Training that will bring on a number of physiological and psychological "adaptations" to doing such dives, but might not be directly measurable as "being able to breath higher co2". I guess as a term co2-tolerance is a bit misleading. It should be more like breathing reflex tolerance or something. That is also why tricks like breathing into a plastic bag don't work very well in training. I'm sure most of it is psychological, but you can definitely feel the difference after doing "co2"-training for a while (which, again, I think as a term is misleading)

As for the purging school, well, I think it's pretty simply giving students a feeling of success. That is not to be underestimated, but of course I would not advocate hyperventilation and if it's done for the wrong motives (like selling more courses with a quick fix hyperventilation stunt) it's of course questionable. But for example warmups are something I continue teaching beginners even though I my self am convinced no-warmup is better for max. Why? Students on different levels need different things. For a very beginner, it's far more important to learn to feel at ease in water and get a positive "this is fun"-type of experience rather than being able to crunch a max apnea performance. But as they learn more, you can gradually start bringing in other, mode advanced elements. If I told them to just no warmup, no breathup and try to think of dying while you dive - I'm sure the succes rate would not be too great.

As per the original question, hard to say remotely, but what you might try is doing several 95% dives. Ie if you know you samba at 130+ and your training is mostly diving to 100. How about diving to 125 - or some such number, the point is it is as close as you can get to your limit but 100% samba free. Taking a break is also not a bad idea sometimes (your own comment about the over training)

Theory 6 is also not to be underestimated. By failing many times, you teach your self subconsiously for failing again. That is why building up gradually is the popular advice. And also, sometimes, taking a break and doing something completely different will bring surprising results. Both body and mind respond differently to training again. The classic symptom of training burnout is that you have to force your self to the pool and even the thought of going feels depressing. Where as in a good, balanced training, you can't wait to get into the water despite the fact you know you might get to feel some uncomfort.

 

[Phil C]

Thanks for all the well considered responses. I'm honoured!

I think it is possible that the DR is not kicking in fully as I don't get much lactic build up feeling (compared to say forced exhale DNF where I feel profound DR with strong lactic within 25m). But why Samba? Why not BO?

With regard to the no warm up philosophy the only deep respiration I do is the exhale and inhale then pack at the start of the dive. Although it is likely that pre-dive stress does subconsciously increase my ventilation. I had assumed I had that under control with contractions starting at about 40m in a 120-130m swim.

Will: Not sure my CO2 tolerance is low, don't find contractions too much of an ordeal if I am committed to a goal. Currently doing exhale statics (and DYN) regularly to mentally help me with CWT. Possibly some subconscious aversion going on though! I'll break out some more CO2 tables and play more UWH!

Jome: your comment re taking a break. I had an interesting experience with DYN. I had been training and training DNF while my Mono sat in the cupboard for maybe a year. One Saturday we went down to the pool and I wasn't feeling like DNF so put on the fin. I remember swimming along kicking occasionally thinking this is soo much easier than DNF, almost like doing a static while the tiles glide by. After a while my legs got really lactic feeling so I came up. 100% clear headed. I had put 60m on my DYN PB!

After that I thought '200m is not so far away' and started training long swims with my Mono, working on improving my technique, reducing my leg bend, improving my streamlining. The problem is now I cannot get back to that 'almost like doing a static' feeling and samba while attempting the same distance I did that day and came up clean.

Maybe the answer is to figure out how to be sufficiently relaxed pre dive not to over ventilate.

Maybe relaxation is the key (not something I'm good at) Its a bit like something I read once about Flying - the key is to fall toward the ground but to miss.

 

[jome]

By the way, do you hook breath?

 

[cebaztian]

I suggest different kind of breathing in different stages of your freediving career (level of experience).

Going through all stages and methods of breathing will help you get to know your body. If I as a beginner was asked to do the Fattah, Murat style (and now suggested by Mullins and Will), I actually might not be a freediver to day. It is quite hard core stuff.

Advicing on amount of breathing is a tricky thing, specially over internet. Will mentioned, a few breaths can for some be "over ventilation",for others not.

Sebastian

 

[trux]

I agree that at different levels you need to experiment with the breathing to get to know your own body responses and signals better. However, I disagree that ventilation-free dive preparation may scare off beginners. Personally, when I learned diving in the early 80's, we were already taught to avoid hyperventilating, and it never brought to me any kind of frustration, or harmed my enjoyment of apnea diving. I am often in conflict with instructors in our club who tend to teach ventilation that I consider to be hyperventilation. For them it is not, but on my mind it does not make any good to the beginners. True, they are amazed how easily they can suddenly progress, but in fact they do not learn coping with hypercapnia and hypoxia at all. Instead of it they are just taught to suppress the symptoms of progressing apnea. On my mind they would learn much faster if they started to cope with the reality of the breath-holding. And I am not speaking here about the safety risk - once they find out they can easily prolonge the comfort part of the breath-hold, they tend to over-do it, and it may have fatal conseguences if they do it when diving outside the club alone.

Sorry for the off-topic comment, but I felt it ought to be told, when we are already speaking about hyperventilation.

 

[trux]

About the "no co2 tolerance" thing. I don't think the best way to measure that for freedivers is breathing gas that has co2 added into it. ...

I agree absolutely, and commented about the method too. However, it won't be easy to compare freedivers with non-freedivers otherwise. Well, perhaps by intravenous infusion of CO2, but that might be far too dangerous. Doing it simply during breath-hold won't work, because you won't manage to get both groups doing apneas where they reach comparable hypercapnia.

However, despite the evident difference to the breath-hold scenario, the lapse of the tolerance to artificially induced CO2 was quite surprising. It was surprising to myself, as well to the scientists, and as well to all freedivers I saw discussing the study.

 

[Phil C]

By the way, do you hook breath?

I don't actually. But I feel Samba starting while I am still underwater sometimes.

 

[efattah]

I can say from my experience:

- Frequent sambas increase your susceptibility to seizures & sambas, and thus you will get them earlier in the breath-hold, even while still completely awake and aware
- Appearing of convulsions while you are still quite conscious is a very bad sign and could be due to excess number of sambas
- Overtraining (for me) greatly increases my chance of sambas

What I am talking about here is the samba vs. blackout comparison. I'm not so much talking about what can bring on early blackouts (i.e. hyperventilation), but rather why you would experience lots of sambas rather than black-outs. Studies have shown that 90% of people experience seizures as they BO from hypoxia, and 10% of people will BO without a seizure. Diet and other factors may affect that.

 

[rnsaicic]

I can say from my experience:

- Appearing of convulsions while you are still quite conscious is a very bad sign and could be due to excess number of sambas

This is a very interesting point. Eric, would you please elaborate it in some more details? (i. e. why this symptom is so bad).

 

[efattah]

For me, the appearance of sambas while still conscious only occurred when I subjected myself to dozens of sambas per week. I read some papers on animal studies with 'hypoxic seizure' and found that repeated hypoxic seizures had strong negative changes in the animal brain, increasing susceptibility to all sorts of seizures including general epilepsy. Also some studies on human children who had hypoxic seizures at birth showed similar results.

 

[Phil C]

I'm glad to hear that my maybe 1x per month Samba while training hard is well short of your own experience Eric. I figure if I am pushing envelopes not pushed by Eric I am truly pushing envelopes!

I'm a little confused though, for me a samba is by definition suffered while concious. You are cogniscant but do not have 100% control over your body and are suffering tremors. In some cases you may even be laughing at the bizarre experience - Eh Bubbleless.

Eric - Do you have a different understanding?

 

[rnsaicic]

Thank you for this cautionary note on possible negative effect of repeated sambas, Eric. Although it has been generaly stated that samba (as well as BO) comes without a warning, is it really so? Within last couple of months, I have experienced several episodes of samba, at both STA, DYN and even Frc DNF attempts. In retrospect, I noticed that these events were preceeded by 5-10 sec by a progressive loss of control over certain muscles (while still under water), notably the urethral sphincter. I remember that someone else (in one of previous threads) considered “ringing in the ears” as a reproductive sign that his hypoxia has reached a critical level. It would be interesting to hear whether (at least some) people have experienced such phenomena, which might be taken as warning signs with certain level of reliability. Of course, this might be very individual.

 

[Mullins]

The couple of times I've had Sambas/BOs they have been very gradual onset with heaps of warning. I remember Eric saying he gets pretty clear warning signs too. But like most things in freediving it varies between individuals. I expect if you hyperventilated you may not get any warning - and this is how many spearos get themselves into trouble, which is probably the reason behind the common cautionary message.