Samba's soon after breath-ups

[Yogaman]

Hi all...

I need some advice/insights into my breath-ups:

I've been doing some dry-land statics and dynamics for training purposes, but now twice in the last month or so, I've done what i thought was a good breath-up - and felt nicely ventilated, but then (like yesterday), I've taken my final breath, started my walk (okay I stood up to start my walk and simulate the effort required for a duck-dive) then sambad.

Am I doing something wrong?

 

[trux]

I'd tell that you were not nicely ventilated, but pretty much extremely hyperventilated. Hyperventilation (low CO2 content in lungs and blood) will cause vasoconstriction of carotids supplying the brain, and also increases binding of O2 to hemoglobin (it gets not only easier bind on it, but it is also harder to unload it where it is needed). Extreme hyperventilating leads to blackout or as in your case to LMC.

 

[Yogaman]

Hi Trux,

Thanks for the insights!

I normally rest some time from my last dry-land dynamic/static, then commence a two-minute breath-up. This consists of long, slow, inhalations, followed by longer (up to double the time) exhales, then a final deep inhalation and exhalation and hold...

Perhaps I'm still breathing too rapidly/deeply.

My obvious concern is that I don't want to be doing an incorrect breath-up before and actual dive and then samba/BO just after my duck-dive :head

Any tips to avoid the problem? Is there a standard, good breath-up pattern?

 

[OceanMan]

Hi,

It's not a samba. Samba comes from lack of oxygen.

I think you are just getting a very low blood pressure because of numerous factors:
- quick stand up
- full lung
- and hyperventilation

Try this : after your final deep inhalation, do a 15" static apnea, then stand up slowly and start your walking apnea. Don't pack. This way it should be alright.

If I don't do this I always suffer from low blood pressure in my brain and I have to stop the apnea and sometimes put a knee on the floor to avoid falling and hurt myself.

 

[Yogaman]

Hey Oceanman,

Thanks for the advice.

When I do statics sometimes, I do my breath-up and then hold my breath and then feel slightly dizzy for about the first 15 seconds. I'm sure it'll work for dynamics too (on land), but I'd prefer to get to the bottom of the problem and not have to do it (and benefit from 15 extra seconds walk time)...

 

[trux]

It's not a samba. Samba comes from lack of oxygen.

Having not seen it, I cannot tell whether it was samba or not, but do not see any reason why it could not be. Hyperventilation paradoxically starves the brain of oxygen, due to the mentioned stronger O2 binding to hemoglobin, and due to the contraction of the carotid arteries (and also the remaining blood vessels in brain). Physiologically the mechanism of a hypoxic and hypocapnic blackouts are very similar. Blackouts after hyperventilating are quite common, so I see really no reason why hyperventilation and hence the consequent hypoxia in brain could not cause LMC.

 

[trux]

When I do statics sometimes, I do my breath-up and then hold my breath and then feel slightly dizzy for about the first 15 seconds.

If you feel dizzy, then you are definitely quite strongly hyperventilated. You do not need to make any special breath-up, just breath in the same way as usually. When training, just breath as usually. Especially if you train just CO2 tables, whose purpose is to keep as much CO2 as possible between the apneas, hyperventilating breath up is counter-productive.

If you really need to make breath up, do it extremely slowly and make sure that the exhaling is at least 3-4 time longer than inhaling. I saw following patterns recommended - count to 3 for inhaling, hold for 4 counts, exhale for 12 counts. Do not do it in any big amplitude, but rather try to stay as much relaxed as possible.

 

[Yogaman]

Thanks again Trux,

I've started doing my breath-ups with more control, and like you say, more exhale time than inhale (and sometimes some small breath-holding in-between to make sure). I'm definitely seeing better results and not going into that 'dizzy' few seconds after breath-hold...

Cool!

 

[naiad]

I find that I need a different kind of breath-up for different things. For dry static, I can do a lot of hyperventilation with no problems. For things like apnea walking and pool static, I have to be more careful. For anything with empty lungs, and anything alone in the pool, I do a very minimal breath-up, just a few deep breaths.

Lucia

 

[trux]

Personally, I do not do any breath up or deep breathing at all, when training. I just breath as usually, and rather work on relaxation. Finally, the purpose of the training is not to do longer tables than others, but to accustom the body and soul to harder conditions. So for example it makes no sense to breath deeply when you do static or dynamic hypercapnic exercises, because you would kill their purpose which is in building up high level of CO2. It is much more efficient doing a CO2 exercise without hyperventilation, deep breathing, and/or purges, than doing a longer table with it. Unfortunately, I often see that people mostly prefer doing longer tables with a lot of breathing, just to be in the "upper class" of freedivers who do the longest tables.

There is a nice hypercapnic exercise that avoids such hyperventilation - do a series of apneas during 5, 8 or 10 minutes (or more; depending on your level), taking always only a single and slow breath in between. The length of the individual breath hold is not important, but you should not reduce the time in the series, but rather try increasing it. Hence, you better start with about 25% of your max. This exercise will assure a nice CO2 build-up and avoid excess hyperventilation.

And hyperventilating is unwanted at hypoxic exercises as well, since by hyperventilating or deep breaths you risk samba or blackout. So I'd recommend little bit deeper breathing only occasionally, with good surveillance, just to see the difference and for knowing how far you can go safely when doing max.

 

[Waterysmile]

Personally, I do not do any breath up or deep breathing at all, when training. I just breath as usually, and rather work on relaxation. Finally, the purpose of the training is not to do longer tables than others, but to accustom the body and soul to harder conditions. So for example it makes no sense to breath deeply when you do static or dynamic hypercapnic exercises, because you would kill their purpose which is in building up high level of CO2.

Do you disagree, then, with the design of the two tables on the beginners freediving thread which has 2 minutes between breath holds on the CO2 table?

 

[trux]

Yes, two minutes is far to long for a breath-up at a CO2 table, on my mind. Makes no sense to me, unless you use the first breath holds like warm up. In our club we always start the static session with two or three expiratory breath holds - relaxing and slowly blowing out air (under water) for 1 or 2 minutes (or whatever you can do relatively comfortably), and then possibly some empty lungs breath holds for the warm up.

We do hypercapnic tables as follows:
BU = Breath Up
APNEA = ~60% of your max; novices usually start with something like 1:30 - 1:45, so possibly more than 60% of their max, which is usually not too high at the beginning.

1. APNEA + 1:30 BU
2. APNEA + 1:15 BU
3. APNEA + 1:00 BU
4. APNEA + 0:45 BU
5. APNEA + 0:30 BU
6. APNEA + 0:15 BU
7. APNEA + 0:15 BU
8. APNEA + 0:15 BU
9. APNEA - end

And even that is little bit too long, so the more advanced members usually start with just 1 minute and then do 2 more rounds with 15 secs breath up's at the end instead of it. EDIT: The last few breath holds should be really very difficult. If they are not, increase your apnea time next time.

 

[Waterysmile]

Thanks.

That looks hard, Trux! I have been following the beginner static tables but as the Oxygen table today took 37 minutes (BUs of 2 mins, final 2 holds were 3 minutes 15 seconds) I have wondered about reducing the BU time. Would 1:30 be about right?

 

[naiad]

It is much more efficient doing a CO2 exercise without hyperventilation, deep breathing, and/or purges, than doing a longer table with it. Unfortunately, I often see that people mostly prefer doing longer tables with a lot of breathing, just to be in the "upper class" of freedivers who do the longest tables.

I prefer shorter intervals in tables, both for O2 and CO2 tables. However, I do deep breathing in the intervals, and I usually do relatively long tables. This is not to be competitive and do the longest tables, it is because I prefer to build up CO2 or low O2 slowly over the course of the table, and this way I can build up my tolerance much better. For me, building up CO2 suddenly with short intervals is unbearable, and if I try to do it I usually give up before finishing the table. If I do a table with intervals of 1:00 or 0:45, and deep breaths in this time, I can feel that by the end of it I have very high CO2, but it has become bearable because there is no sudden increase. For the same reason, I don't like starting off with long intervals, because then my CO2 level starts off very low and then increases suddenly, which is too much. A breath-up of 2:00 is usually too much for me in any table.

Lucia

 

[trux]

That looks hard, Trux!

That's the purpose of the training

Yes, of course, starting 1:30 makes more sense than 2 min, but what is especially important are the last breath up's that should be as short as possible. If you do not suffer, you are nowhere close to your limits, and the body reactions and your psychics will not improve a lot with such training. That's my opinion, at least; others may disagree.

 

[Waterysmile]

Don't worry, I am suffering! In the 0xygen table I had difficult contractions for the last minute. I think I will work down nearer to the intervals you've suggested.

At the moment I can hardly exercise and my fitness level is very low and I am finding a 2 minute apnea in the Co2 table much easier than the 02 table.

 

[Bill]

It depends on what you are trying to achieve. The tables are good for general training. The apnea walks are great if you can't do underwater laps and mixing up the training is good for the head.
Having said that, you get better at what you train. If you're training for competition, nothing compares to "in the water" training the way that you will do the events (in my case, that's a full prep starting 36 hours before) and a max static, but a 1/1 2/2 3/3 4/4 5/5 6/6 7/7 8/max twice a week will keep me at a level where I can peak in 6 weeks and feels way easier than the tables.
When I do breathe-ups of less than two minutes, O2 or CO2 tables, I end up breathing too fast and too deep. I've now switched my CO2 workout to counting breaths. Fifteen minutes of diaphragm breathing through the nose with a short series of empty lung holds and a couple of pack stretches serve as a warm up and then 8 breaths and a 2 1/2 minute hold, 7 breath, 2 1/2, 6/2 1/2........down to 1 breath/max. On a super day, I only get a 1 1/2 hold. It seems to work better than the 1:45/3:15..........15/3:15 with about 5 breaths in the 15 seconds.
IMHO
Bill

 

[Waterysmile]

I can see, Bill, what you mean by ending up breathing too fast; I did an O2 table this morning and there was a danger of me trying to breath more quickly to make up for the less time.

Ventilate 1:30 Hold 1:30
Ventilate 1:30 Hold 1:45
Ventilate 1:30 Hold 2:00
Ventilate 1:30 Hold 2:15
Ventilate 1:30 Hold 2:30
Ventilate 1:30 Hold 2:45
Ventilate 1:30 Hold 3:00
Ventilate 1:30 Hold 3:00

Hey, Trux, you bastard . You are making my brain funny; it definitely feels a bit odd towards the end of the table. And it only took me 30 minutes. Thanks again.