Sandbag training?

[5kgLifter]

I don't really know the best place to post this thread, but I felt it might be seen as scientific in a sense.

Being a relative beginner, I figure if I experiment with this, I may not get 'correct' results, and wondered if some of the more experienced freedivers would like to give it a shot; I may try it sometime next week just to see. I have done this before and it frees up the breathing, but I've never tried it with a breath hold after in order to see if it increases it. I also use two 5kg dumbbells, since I don't have a sandbag.

The idea is that you place a sandbag, of a comfortable weight, on the abdomen, when laying down, and just breath as normal...as you would for relaxation etc. Then remove the sandbag, after such as 5 minutes/ 10 minutes, and go about your day, or exercise. I don't know if it strengthens the diaphragm at all, but I do know that it made breathing in the short period afterwards feel very unrestricted and light work.

If anyone has any views on this I'd be interested, or gives it a go and finds that it does help with a hold time.

 

[superhornet59]

Well there are two mechanisms of breathing, one is through the thoracic diaphragm (breathing with your belly) and the other thorough the intercostal muscles (expanding your rib cage)

Freediver's need to maximize both. Things like resistance breathing (with that expand-a-lung thing) help. Personally, I do vacuum breathing (let all the air out of your lungs, close off off your epiglottis, and try and inhale. expand your ribs and belly as far as you can.)

Either way, it's resistance training. Think of it like the pro skaters and runners who exercise with a parachute behind their back. You're working the muscles by making them try harder.

Flexibility exercises to increase flexibility in your chest are also play a key role in that.

You can't just make the muscles stronger without giving them a place to put the air, that's why you have to work on the rib cage, which is why having strong intercostal muscles are a big plus. Personally, and it seems to be the same way with everyone I see, I inhale as much as I can with my diaphragm then top it off with my chest.

Cardio will definitely make a huge difference as well. Your lungs and heart are a system, after all.

I don't think what your doing isn't working.. I'm sure it is.. but there are more efficient ways to achieve what you want.

 

[5kgLifter]

Actually superhornet59, I'm not doing the sandbag training, I just remembered it from years ago, and threw it out there for discussion in case it was of any use once in a while, after doing all the training; cardio, flexibility etc.

 

[superhornet59]

well you could give it a try, and be a sort of Guinea pig for us

Remember, I'm just giving you my opinion, I've never tried it. If you tried it for a while and it made a noticeable difference then I'd be all over it.

A similar exercise that would be more effective, by the way, would be submerged breathing. This is because the pressure comes from all sides, not just the top. Having your chest submerged already increases the workload.. add a snorkel to increase depth and it'll be even more so. If you have regular access to a pool, then that'd be your best bet. In the meantime, if it don't kill you, it makes you stronger: a workout is a workout, and it wouldn't hurt to try. It's good to vary up exercises anyway, keeps your muscles (in this case the ones that control how much you can inhale) from plateauing.

I hope you didn't take my earlier post as a flame or anything though, I'm not discrediting the idea, I just meant that that particular workout isn't really my cup of tea.

-Matt

 

[5kgLifter]

well you could give it a try, and be a sort of Guinea pig for us

Remember, I'm just giving you my opinion, I've never tried it. If you tried it for a while and it made a noticeable difference then I'd be all over it.

A similar exercise that would be more effective, by the way, would be submerged breathing. This is because the pressure comes from all sides, not just the top. Having your chest submerged already increases the workload.. add a snorkel to increase depth and it'll be even more so. If you have regular access to a pool, then that'd be your best bet. In the meantime, if it don't kill you, it makes you stronger: a workout is a workout, and it wouldn't hurt to try. It's good to vary up exercises anyway, keeps your muscles (in this case the ones that control how much you can inhale) from plateauing.

I hope you didn't take my earlier post as a flame or anything though, I'm not discrediting the idea, I just meant that that particular workout isn't really my cup of tea.

-Matt

No, no worries there...I put the idea out for opinions, and it produced some good feedback. I may try it just to see if it does make a significant difference. I'm already learning that if I inhale a bit longer than 15 seconds that I have a decreased, or harder, breath hold, which is interesting. All safe experimentation is good in my book...and I already do weights and cardio, both of which work the chest area, especially DB pullovers.

 

[superhornet59]

That may be because the 'hardness' of a breath hold is determined by CO2 levels. Spending 15 seconds inhaling and not letting out CO2 is already beginning the buildup process. but.. only by 15 seconds anyway, not sure why that would affect how long it takes to black out though.

Usually I Exhale slowly, because its pretty common knowledge that heart rate decreases during exhalation (due to an increase of pressure in the thoracic cavity) and vice versa. Therefore, I concentrate on breathing out slowly and with a decent amount of back pressure (keeping my lips nearly closed), and then taking a really big gasp.

I tilt my head back a bit and open my mouth wide to make the airflow into my lungs as easy as possible, so the pressure is not reduced as much and wont increase heart rate too much.

One of my exercises for that by the way is to inhale as deep as I can... and then hold it there, with my epiglottis open. Try it, its hard!! Normally we just inhale a lot then close it and 'bottle it in', but keeping your lungs and throat stretched open like that takes a whole lot of work, because its rarely ever done in anything but short spurts.

That helps me take in a lot, quickly, and with minimal resistance, along with increasing my lung capacity (not necessarily the size of my lungs, just how far I can expand them without needing to pack. With packing allowed, I doubt it would affect my top lung capacity though.)

-Matt

 

[5kgLifter]

That may be because the 'hardness' of a breath hold is determined by CO2 levels. Spending 15 seconds inhaling and not letting out CO2 is already beginning the buildup process. but.. only by 15 seconds anyway, not sure why that would affect how long it takes to black out though.

Usually I Exhale slowly, because its pretty common knowledge that heart rate decreases during exhalation (due to an increase of pressure in the thoracic cavity) and vice versa. Therefore, I concentrate on breathing out slowly and with a decent amount of back pressure (keeping my lips nearly closed), and then taking a really big gasp.

I tilt my head back a bit and open my mouth wide to make the airflow into my lungs as easy as possible, so the pressure is not reduced as much and wont increase heart rate too much.

One of my exercises for that by the way is to inhale as deep as I can... and then hold it there, with my epiglottis open. Try it, its hard!! Normally we just inhale a lot then close it and 'bottle it in', but keeping your lungs and throat stretched open like that takes a whole lot of work, because its rarely ever done in anything but short spurts.

That helps me take in a lot, quickly, and with minimal resistance, along with increasing my lung capacity (not necessarily the size of my lungs, just how far I can expand them without needing to pack. With packing allowed, I doubt it would affect my top lung capacity though.)

-Matt

Thanks, I'll have to take that in to account...and I just gave the hold with epiglottis open a go, weirdly interesting.

 

[superhornet59]

Yeah, it's always a good idea to throw different work outs into your routine here and there. Try doing different methods of lung exercises (any of the ones covered above) every once in a while. Changing your routine prevents those muscles from getting used to what you're doing and plateauing at a certain point. Not sure if that same philosophy applies to stretching, but it'll definitely help with whipping those breathing muscles into amazing shape.

-Matt

 

[5kgLifter]

That may be because the 'hardness' of a breath hold is determined by CO2 levels. Spending 15 seconds inhaling and not letting out CO2 is already beginning the buildup process. but.. only by 15 seconds anyway, not sure why that would affect how long it takes to black out though.

Usually I Exhale slowly, because its pretty common knowledge that heart rate decreases during exhalation (due to an increase of pressure in the thoracic cavity) and vice versa. Therefore, I concentrate on breathing out slowly and with a decent amount of back pressure (keeping my lips nearly closed), and then taking a really big gasp.

I tilt my head back a bit and open my mouth wide to make the airflow into my lungs as easy as possible, so the pressure is not reduced as much and wont increase heart rate too much.

One of my exercises for that by the way is to inhale as deep as I can... and then hold it there, with my epiglottis open. Try it, its hard!! Normally we just inhale a lot then close it and 'bottle it in', but keeping your lungs and throat stretched open like that takes a whole lot of work, because its rarely ever done in anything but short spurts.

That helps me take in a lot, quickly, and with minimal resistance, along with increasing my lung capacity (not necessarily the size of my lungs, just how far I can expand them without needing to pack. With packing allowed, I doubt it would affect my top lung capacity though.)

-Matt

I gave some of this a go, concerning the way you exhale and inhale before a dive/attempt etc...and am pleased to announce that I managed a 2 minute hold on Saturday...grinning from ear to ear at present. Maybe it would be good if I could get some feedback off others, since I can't get to anyone to see how the breath-up is done, if you follow. I wonder if that would come under scientific, or beginner area.

 

[superhornet59]

Ya I used to train 'dry', so I would just like put my head down on a desk and hold.. I'd play a song or something to keep my mind off things. When I'm in the water though.. I get kind of bored and my mind wanders, so it gets harder. My best submerged time has been 3:15, but my dry PB was 4:30. (I take it in 15 second blocks, makes it easier for me to push that extra bit). I hear that past like 5 minutes it gets a bit easier as hypoxia numbs up the contractions a bit and you feel motivated by how close you are, but in all honesty I haven't pushed myself that hard in statics anymore. I concentrate more on actually diving as opposed to just sitting there, bored, and uncomfortable.

I've stayed some 3:00 - 3:30 underwater while swimming in reefs (yeah I know its a bad idea.. it was only a few times to go to check out some 25 meter deep areas. So, I know I'm on par with a lot of the 6+ minute guys here.. I just really don't like sitting around doing statics.

Wasn't it Jacques Mayol who was walking by during a competition and saw everyone doing statics and said "that's not freediving.. that's just stupid."

I've had that sort of philosophy hehe. A lot of my training is dynamic, like lane swimming underwater or apnea walking.

Keep practicing though, it'll get easier. When I do statics now and then, I don't even feel I'm holding my breath until about 2:15, and I don't get any contractions until 2:45-3:00.