Severe Headaches during training

[lonefin]

Tribe,
Recently I have had a heck of a time diving. My symptoms ocurred as follows.

During a static apnea pool training session, I experienced my back muscles contracting starting just below my neck line and running up into my rear skull, at around 235. Since I just started training this is at the edge of my max time right now. The pain was unbearable and caused me to discontinue training.

The next day I went out and was diving on the line. I did two warm up drops 5 meters for around a minute and then 10 meters for 120. The neck grabbed a little and the headache was stronger than the day before. I actually could not function as a safety diver the pain was so extreme.

The following day I was doing a full exhalation to reverse packing and diving to twelve feet. The headache came back in short order, in fact the first drop.

I am experiencing the same symptoms, somewhat milder during simple surface static holds. I am not pushing it hoping that I can heal and then check it out once more.

I am worried the symptoms may signal some other more serious condition. Or worse that this may limit my diving for some time.It has been about six days now.

The headache is mild now and more forward over the temple. The headache experienced during the work outs was in the rear region primarily, but not limited. It was intense pain. I am wondering if anyone has experienced a similar situation. Please help.

I am also interested in an apnea specialist in my region, I am living in Guam and near Japan, Taiwan, Philipines, Hong Kong, Bangkok, I appreciate your advice.

Troy Williams
AKA Lonefin
Guam

 

[Deepwater]

Troy,

It could be , that you have a very low tolerance towards CO2 buildup. A headache is a very good indicator that you have way to much CO2 in your system. Just bear in mind, that CO2 is alot more narcotic than Nitrogen and has higher anesthetic properties compared to Nitrogen.

Maybe do a few sessions with an instructor to watch how you breathe? It could be that you breathing is wrong.

Anyway, hope this helps and PLEASE dive safe and get well

Ali

 

[Deepwater]

I am no Dr, but I find that if I have a headache after a dive, a good BURP helps and some O2 for a few mins

-Ali

 

[naiad]

Some discussions about headaches...
http://forums.deeperblue.net/general-freediving/68726-headache-during-after-freedive.html
http://forums.deeperblue.net/general-freediving/70317-headache.html
I think it is probably a CO2 headache, or something to do with blood pressure. It is unlikely to be a sinus squeeze if it is happening on the surface. Definitely don't keep on doing the training that causes the headache.

Lucia

 

[Deepwater]

Some discussions about headaches...
http://forums.deeperblue.net/general-freediving/68726-headache-during-after-freedive.html
http://forums.deeperblue.net/general-freediving/70317-headache.html
I think it is probably a CO2 headache, or something to do with blood pressure. It is unlikely to be a sinus squeeze if it is happening on the surface. Definitely don't keep on doing the training that causes the headache.

Lucia

Hypercapnia.

I hate Co2 headaches. They take days and days to go away.:hungover

A

 

[jome]

To me that doesn't seem like a co2 headache, although it is possible. But co2 headaches build up slowly and usually you have to do some serious apnea to get there (or very short recoverys).

I had a very similar experience recently. I made a free immersion dive to 30m without anything else on except speedos. The water got a little cold on the bottom and as I wasn't wearing any face equimpent, I lost consentration for a moment, had a cold contraction and pulled "something" in the back of my neck, resulting in a massive headache. I stopped diving for the day, the headache was gone and I was reliefed.

But after that, the same thing started happening every now and then. On other days I would be ok, but on some days the headache was pounding.

Upon returning home (I was on a one week trip) I got a really bad case from doing chinups. Basically all I could do was lay on a sofa for 4 hours (and I don't usually bitch about little wears and tears). So I decided to completely rest for a week, and after that I've been slowly re-introducing physical activities and seem to be completely ok now...

I was really scared I had maybe ruptured a blood vessel or something, but just calm common sense said it cannot be. I would have other symptoms then than just a sudden, throbbing pain associated with physical effort. Also stretching my neck seemed to bring some relief, although I could never exactly pinpoint the problem area. But I'm pretty convinced it was a pulled/cramped muscle somewhere deep in my neck/skull or something like that caused from an uncontrollable contraction from the cold.

So there's my experience from recent. I'm not saying that you should just ignore it - persistent head aches are usually a VERY good reason to visit a doctor (I'm lucky to have one at home ). That is my first recommendation. The other is to take it easy for at least a week and then if you seem ok, start building up slowly again...

 

[naiad]

I am not sure about whether the increased blood pressure at the end of apnea, and caused by contractions, has any risks.

I am also not sure about the risks of high CO2 - I asked about this some time ago.
http://forums.deeperblue.net/general-freediving/63194-effects-high-co2.html

 

[Deepwater]

I will write a longer article about this tonight when I get home.

On a narcotic scale ( 0 being most anesthetic 5 being lowest) Co2 is a 0
The scale is as follows by Meyer-Overton hence Meyer Overton scale.

0=CO2
.45= O2
2= N2
5= Helium

There are other gases in the middle too. The suprising one is that O2 is a bit more narcotic than nitrogen but since we are talking about CO2 headaches then I will stick to that.

CO2 also has a higher lipid solubility factor as well being a very dense gas.

I will write the rest tonight and post it up.

ali

 

[trux]

I am sorry Deepwater, but I am afraid you are not correct. CO2 is actually 130 times more narcotic than nitrogen. It's narcotic effects are just no serious issue in normal conditions, because there is just 4%-5% of CO2 in exhaled air vs 78% of nitrogen, and CO2 is about 25 times more soluble than N2. Besides it, CO2 retention promotes both nitrogen narcosis and oxygen toxicity - read more about if for example in the document listed here: narcosis @ APNEA.cz

Additionally, the toxic effect of CO2 is a much more important issue than its narcotic effect.

 

[Deepwater]

I am sorry Deepwater, but I am afraid you are not correct. CO2 is actually 130 times more narcotic than nitrogen. It's narcotic effects are just no serious issue in normal conditions, because there is just 4%-5% of CO2 in exhaled air vs 78% of nitrogen, and CO2 is about 25 times more soluble than N2. Besides it, CO2 retention promotes both nitrogen narcosis and oxygen toxicity - read more about if for example in the document listed here: narcosis @ APNEA.cz

Additionally, the toxic effect of CO2 is a much more important issue than its narcotic effect.

Trux,

I am very well aware that CO2 is 130x for narcotic than N2. I think you read the post wrong.Maybe you got confused with the word anasthetic. 0 on the scale means the MOST narcotic ,i:e highest anesthetic properties.
Let me clarify.


0=CO2---------Most Narcotic
.45= O2
2= N2
5= Helium------- Least Narcotic

I can go into figures on lipid solubility factors as well as I know the figures. The above you say is correct and that was what I was trying to highlight. Sounds like you repeated what I wrote.

A

 

[trux]

Sorry, indeed I did not see the inversed scale. But still, what I wrote stands: the toxic effect of CO2 will most likely be more important, especially at static and dynamic or shallow dives. As I wrote, the narcotic effect of CO2 is greatly suppressed by its low level and high solubility. Though it is sure at deep apnea dives it may get much more important than at scuba -1st because the CO2 level will be higher than at scuba, and 2nd also because the high CO2 stimulates also N2 narcosis and O2 toxicity, which NLT apnea divers (unlike tech divers) cannot fight with different gas mixtures, but maximally with emptying their lungs like Herbert did. Still some amount of air remains, and the gas is also dissolved in blood and tissue, so the effects are not completely eliminated by the empty lungs dive.

 

[Deepwater]

Sorry, indeed I did not see the inversed scale. But still, what I wrote stands: the toxic effect of CO2 will most likely be more important, especially at static and dynamic or shallow dives. As I wrote, the narcotic effect of CO2 is greatly suppressed by its low level and high solubility. Though it is sure at deep apnea dives it may get much more important than at scuba -1st because the CO2 level will be higher than at scuba, and 2nd also because the high CO2 stimulates also N2 narcosis and O2 toxicity, which NLT apnea divers (unlike tech divers) cannot fight with different gas mixtures, but maximally with emptying their lungs like Herbert did. Still some amount of air remains, and the gas is also dissolved in blood and tissue, so the effects are not completely eliminated by the empty lungs dive.

Exactly what I wanted to post up later on but you beat me to it

No worries, we all misread things. I misread the scale as well when I first saw it, when I did DIR-F.

-Ali

 

[aesthetic]

Tribe,
Recently I have had a heck of a time diving. My symptoms ocurred as follows.

During a static apnea pool training session, I experienced my back muscles contracting starting just below my neck line and running up into my rear skull, at around 235. Since I just started training this is at the edge of my max time right now. The pain was unbearable and caused me to discontinue training.

The next day I went out and was diving on the line. I did two warm up drops 5 meters for around a minute and then 10 meters for 120. The neck grabbed a little and the headache was stronger than the day before. I actually could not function as a safety diver the pain was so extreme.

The following day I was doing a full exhalation to reverse packing and diving to twelve feet. The headache came back in short order, in fact the first drop.

I am experiencing the same symptoms, somewhat milder during simple surface static holds. I am not pushing it hoping that I can heal and then check it out once more.

I am worried the symptoms may signal some other more serious condition. Or worse that this may limit my diving for some time.It has been about six days now.

The headache is mild now and more forward over the temple. The headache experienced during the work outs was in the rear region primarily, but not limited. It was intense pain. I am wondering if anyone has experienced a similar situation. Please help.

I am also interested in an apnea specialist in my region, I am living in Guam and near Japan, Taiwan, Philipines, Hong Kong, Bangkok, I appreciate your advice.

Troy Williams
AKA Lonefin
Guam

i used to get this exact feeling when i would work out in the gym sometimes.. hasnt happened in quite awhile, but usually it would happen on the bench press. i do think it has to do with your breathing, because i think i would get it from pushing so hard sometimes and i wouldnt realize i was holding my breath. that is some of the worst pain ive ever had when related to headaches.

my neck would tense up and then a pain would shoot up into the back of my head and would basically render me useless for a few hours. i would even try to fall asleep after taking medicine(s) just to avoid the pain.

i never got it checked out, because since then i have learned proper breathing techniques while working out and havent had the pain since. every so often i will feel a little tension on my neck again, but i stop what im doing and move onto another exercise before the pain begins.

for your sake though, i would consider researching a little bit (apnea sites, webMD, google, etc) and if you cant figure it out and symptoms/problems persist, i would go talk to your doctor about it. im sure there is some type of solution so you dont have to stop diving all together. good luck!

 

[aesthetic]

after reading the posts though, it looks like you have some good leads to go on.

 

[sdalli]

Hi all,

I recently had some issues with this type of headache. it comes suddenly and very intense. it usually happens near the end of the dive when it becomes difficult to keep holding the breath and the pain starts at the neck and shoots up to the brain in a split second and with every heartbeat you get the feeling that your head wants to split in two.

My detailed story is in the thread below:

http://forums.deeperblue.com/general-freediving/88298-headache-stomach-ache-while-diving.html

I spoke to my doctor today and he said that it's most probably because of high blood pressure which tends to increase with physical activity. Does this make sense to you?

Three years have passed now from the last post on this thread, any update? did you find out what the cause of this headache is? and are you OK now? my biggest concern is that it might be an indication of a stroke, but my doctor didn't mention anything related to strokes. what do you think?

I'm Concerned!

 

[trux]

There is indeed a huge increase in blood pressure during apnea. Not so much caused by the physical effort, but rather by vasoconstriction in extremties (while the blood vessels in the brain dilate), and then amplified with each contraction. And (as already mentioned earlier in this thread) the second important factor (well, actually I'd tell the first one) contributing to headaches under apnea is high CO2 level. Make sure you take sufficient rest between individual dives - at least 2-3 folds the time of your last dive, and that you do not swim during the time, but really take rest.

 

[Herup]

Hi Sdalli

Is it a throbbing headache? One-sided or both sides? Back of the head, side or front?


Very best regards
H!

 

[sdalli]

Hi Herup,

Thanks for the reply

What do you mean by throbbing? If by throbbing you mean that it sort of pulsates with the heart beat then yes.

What i felt started from the back of my neck and shot up to the back of my brain maybe a bit to the right side, although both sides where hurting like hell but the right side was a bit worse.

Trux,

With regards to resting between dives i'm quite sure i did enough as after doing some laps i rested for around 10mins and then did around 18mtrs and then rested for 5 more minutes at least and dove for 25mtrs. I don't think i could have exceeded 45-50 seconds under the water.

Thanks mates, I appreciate your support.

 

[Herup]

Hi Sdalli

Yes, thats what I mean.
Well, first of all don't worry until you are 100% sure you have something to worry about
And before you let any negative scenarios bring you down, I can tell you that from what you describe, you are by no means the first breath-hold diver, who experienced this. I know two other guys besides my self, who experienced this. Also I talked with Stig S about it, and he said he came across a couple of students who described similar symptoms as well.

Ok, so when I first experienced this, freediving was very new to me (still is ;-), and I got very scared that this would completely prevent me from diving ever again. I too experience this excruciating, throbbing headache which shot up from the neck around the time when various dive reflexes started to kick in.
So, I set up a test system involving an exel sheet, a blood pressure and pulse measurement devise, a swimmingpool or a bucket of water (and my girlfriend ). Over a test period of some four weeks where I, for a while even wore a special 24 hour blood pressure measurement devise borrowed from a cardio specialist whom I got appointed to by my own physician. The measurements showed that my blood pressure was actually better than average for my age/size, and also as expected, that blood pressure rise as heart rate drops during apnea. In my case thou, nothing more than expected according to the apnea scientist Johan Anderson, who was very helpful in answering a few questions I had after reading through some of his works.

My tests and a great deal of reading through scientific papers, different fora and the web in general, led me to a number of "conclusions" (and remember, I am not a physician so my conclusions are really just pure guessing ;-).

1: The problem was not CO2 induced because the headache would often occur long before the CO2 level would be high; for instance during short static dives, but not necessarily during longer dynamic dives, and CO2 headache by the way feels and occurs in a quite different manner.
2: Some component in strong dive reflexes was causing the problem since for instance an exhale static in cold water without any facial equipment would be a surtain and very fast and efficient way to headache (and to strong dive reflex).
3: Blood pressure change was probably a part of it but in itself not the reason, because I could measure blood pressure levels just as high during high physical activity as during breath hold diving (differences in heart rate of course).

So far so good, but did this condition have a name and was there a cure?
I started to look for similar symptoms in other sports and found that these symptoms was a well known phenomenon among for instance weight lifters. Surprisingly this is often refereed to as "weightlifters headache" or "benign exertional headache"; a really painful but harmless (benign) condition. One of my first hits on Google just now led to a short, informative post on a forum (with sources). Weightlifter's Headache [Archive] - Hypertrophy-Specific Education
I do not claim what breath hold divers experience is the same, but it sure as sunshine sounds similar in symptoms.

And the cure....? 2 x 200mg of Paracetamol 20-30 minutes before diving starts. For me at least, the cure was as simple as that.
Later on I found that 200mg was sufficient, and at some point I tried diving without medicine. In the meantime the headache problem was gone, and it has not occurred since.

So my totally unscientific guess is that some newly started divers need to somehow adjust to some of all these reactions and conditions in the body, which occurs during apnea.
Hope my simple cure can help you as well.

Damn´ what a long story, sorry.

Very best regards
H!


And just for the record: I believe medication in general should be avoided, but if two ordinary headache pills is what stands between diving and not diving at all, my principles can really take a hike ;-)

 

[mystiach]

Hi guys,

Sounds very similar to what I get - however, for me, it's not at the base of the neck but a throbbing at the temples. Usually not too bad but once or twice has been excruciating. I don't get it doing dry CO2 tables, any other form of exercise, or statics in the water - it's something to do with moving in the water (continuous and prolonged), hence, I am assuming, a combination of several things, exacerbated by DR. In respect to my blood pressure, it's very low, and tends to stay low, so though I haven't tested it in apnea I doubt it is the main problem, though could certainly be a part.

When I was competitive swimming, I would always get a headache after our warmup (I used to breath every 7, so little enough that I'd be in anaerobic mode), which would dissipate within 2 or 3 minutes and not return for that training session. Now I warm up in the pool with a 1.1km hypercapnic pyramid, and that gives me the same but worse headache, however, if I relax for a few minutes and let it go away, it won't return, even if I do further hypercapnic training - somehow my body acclimatises.

I find it comes on bad only when I stop - it can be present whilst swimming, but not really noticeable, only a little when I turn. For me, a few things I've found that help:

1) make sure I'm very well hydrated. This immediately cuts the intensity in half. I'm a convert to rehydration salts - they make an instant and noticeable difference to how I feel (don't know if it translates to overall performance, but it certainly feels a lot easier)

2) being well rested and not training sick or mentally stressed. If I'm physically drained, or feel like I'm struggling, it's worse

3) when finishing the CO2 pyramid, I try not to change my body position dramatically - ie forcing a sudden change in blood pressure. I do find that if I stay horizontal for a minute in the water and breathe for a minute or so, the headache doesn't come on as badly as if I stand up immediately.

The severity of the headaches is definitely improving over time - but for me, as they have always been very temporary (albiet acute) perhaps it's a little different to what you describe. Herup, thanks for such an informative post - how long was it before you tried diving without the paracetamol? If you are very fatigued or sick, are you still fine?

Cheers from down under