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Should AIDA Allow Sambas in Competition?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

Should AIDA Change the Samba Rule?

  • No - it's fine the way it is

    Votes: 25 33.3%
  • Yes - they should allow competitors to attempt to recover under their own power

    Votes: 12 16.0%
  • Yes - they should change it so that any shake at all is classified as a samba

    Votes: 2 2.7%
  • Yes - they should attempt to change it so that it is less subjective

    Votes: 36 48.0%

  • Total voters
    75

loopy

Deeper Blue Hypoxyphiliac
Oct 24, 2002
719
51
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39
Should the current rule for samba's be changed to something similar to the IAFD, where as long as the competitor recovers under their own power they're deemed OK? (a la Umberto's dive?) Or should they remain the way they are, or something else?
 

icarus pacific

Human-in-training
Nov 7, 2001
2,880
212
0
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You gotta be shitting me!!

Allowing any sport to condone the blacking out/passing out or momentary incapacitation of the participant is just friggin' nuts! :duh What's next, that competitive skydiving allow non-op parachute landings as long as the guy walks away??

I'm agreeing with the Cliff. Whoda thunk? ;)
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
487
173
Sven,

You're missing the point. The current rules are so strict that people are getting disqualified who were not even close to their limit--they were shivering, they were clumsy, they looked left or right a bit too suddenly. No one wants to train all year and spend a few grand to travel to a competition where you get one chance and then get DQ'd even though you were fine all along.

Also, certain competitors simply don't 'look good' when they come up, no matter how short or long they hold their breath. Some typically have 'wide eyes' (as habit), or some other characteristic which makes it appear they are having a problem.

The word samba or LMC should even be removed from AIDA rules, because currently the athlete is not even required to 'shake' to qualify for a samba/LMC. Simply gazing into space (glazed over), will be judged an LMC/samba, even though there was no shaking. So, it should be called the 'look good' rule, where the athlete has to 'look good' when he comes up.

I never want to see huge shakers being accepted, but what really annoys me is when people are being DQ'd who never actually had sambas. In Cyprus, MANY athletes protested their DQ and won -- proving they never samba'd in the first place.

I have been a safety diver at many local competitions, and I have seen divers be DQ'd who did not samba, and I have seen divers who samba'd and didn't get DQ'd. The point is that the definition of a samba needs to be clarified.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 

loopy

Deeper Blue Hypoxyphiliac
Oct 24, 2002
719
51
0
39
Yeah - sorry, I'm not that good with words... Eric said what I was meaning to say :)
 

loopy

Deeper Blue Hypoxyphiliac
Oct 24, 2002
719
51
0
39
This is what I mean by the rules being too subjective - its up to the individual judge ot decide if the competitior has had a samba or not. One one day, one judge might call a borderline decision, and on another day, they might let someone go free. I know from watching people do statics that there are a few who come up nearly every time looking like they've just samba'd, but being far away from it.

I think a less subjective method needs to be introduced, but what? Certainly saying that if you can recover under your own power, you're OK isn't subjective - whether its safe or not is another issue. What other methods would exist for classifying sambas, that don't depend on the individual judge? An oxymeter?
 

Cliff Etzel

Photographer & Visual Storyteller
Jul 7, 2000
549
34
118
58
efattah said "...current rules are so strict..."

By whose standards are they too strict? That, in itself, is a subjective statement.

Eric will probably know this, but for those who don't:

In order for someone to judge a competition, one has to go through sanctioned AIDA Judges clinics in order to become a judge - it isn't just for anyone to say "I'll be a judge".

You have to compete in an AIDA sanctioned competition before you can attend the Judges Clinic. Then there are various levels of Judging.

AIDA has earned a reputation for being strict in its standards of safety and it has earned them the #1 position as the sanctioning body for competitive freediving.

It has gotten to where it is for the very reason of being strict with safety.

In AIDA competitions and record attempts the judges have and use the right to object if safety standards don't meet their expectations as a trained AIDA judge.

Plain and simple - If you want to compete in AIDA comps, you have to abide by their rules - just like if you want to compete in the Olympics, you have to abide by the rules for any given Olympic sport.

If the governing AIDA body so chooses, they will make changes as they see fit.
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
487
173
Originally posted by Cliff Etzel

If the governing AIDA body so chooses, they will make changes as they see fit.

And in the meantime, one of the great nations (Italy), refrains from sending their best divers to AIDA competitions, due to AIDA's refusal to provide the justification on why Silvia Da Pon was repeatedly disqualified in static apnea.... The Italians stated (and rightfully so), that the 'criteria for disqualification must be made clear, and until they are made clear we will not participate in AIDA competitions.' They did not necessarily say that Silvia Da Pon should have been judged any differently from how she was; all they wanted was some sort of explanation on her three consecutive disqualifications. A judge should be able to say, 'this athlete was disqualified because he/she showed symptom X, which is against the rules.' However, it seems that it is so subjective that it is more like 'duh, I dunno, he didn't look good to me.'

There is a fine line between 'safety' and 'fairness.' I'm not the only one who thinks that. Why do you think the famous 'Dolphins Cup' apnea competition now is held yearly, without the approval of AIDA (even though it was traditionally an AIDA competition)? When the organizers of the Dolphin's Cup decided to stop involving AIDA, the highest members of the AIDA board recommend BOYCOTTING the Dolphin's Cup.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 

ash

New Member
Nov 5, 2002
160
22
0
I believe that all the participants want is consistency in the way they are judged, same as in any sport.

As loopy says, judging whether someone is having a samba is very subjective. Of course this can lead to controversial, erratic or incorrect decisions.

Is it really as subjective as the judge just going by his own experience and his opinion on the day?

Surely there is a list of actual criteria that AIDA judges use to make their decisions? If so, does anyone have access to this list who wouldn't mind posting it here?

Thanks

Ash
 

fatboyjim

New Member
Aug 28, 2002
71
8
0
47
rules / cyprus

at cyprus there was a big variation in the standard of judging, it was on occasion pretty dodgy.... . I'm not a judge and I`m sure they were under pressure and tired etc but that is the way it was, as anyone who was there will tell you.

further more the red, yellow , white card system is unworkable in a competition of that size. Imaging going back and viewing all those tapes for 160 athletes each night. I believe the judging for Cyprus Reloaded will be much more black and white ie. a decision will be made pool side and it will stick... no tape viewing, appeals etc. So the judges are going to have to be consistent this time.
(This isn`t offical just monkey gossip)

The divers who were having to appeal because they fumbled taking their mask off or looked a bit bug eyed might have a bigger problem next time? There will be good and bad decisions by the judges just like any other sport I guess.
 
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Jorg

Sharkbait
Nov 15, 2001
793
96
133
I also heard Howard Jones say that next year will be different and there will be no delay with watching video's. Just YES or NO at the end of the performance. But changing the way how judges judge is ofcourse not up to the organiser but to AIDA International. So I'm very curious how this will develop... Howard already said that this will be the way to go. What will happen if AIDA doens't change those rules? Will we get a second dolphin cup? Or does AIDA see the big crowd in Cyprus and change the rules? :hmm
 

Jorg

Sharkbait
Nov 15, 2001
793
96
133
Oh and I agree completly to the fact that something has to be changed with the complete LOMC thingie! When you get 2 judges, 1 will say oke and 1 will say no.

We had a Dutch guy at the cyprus coming up after constant and he always look strange from his eyes so no exception this time! He was disqualifed for the look in his eyes. No shaking, just in control heavily breathing trying to recover... Maybe it was a LOMC within current rules, but this is ofcourse something that has to be improved.

And yes, I still think that the rules should be redefined, but if you have a LOMC of BO then your DQ. At the moment I get the feeling the judges are thinking "Maybe I did see a samba, so I disqualify him" and it should be "I don't know for sure, he wasn't really shaking and he was still in control, so this attempt is OK".
 

ivan

looking for deeper water
Jan 26, 2002
1,503
48
0
Originally posted by efattah
And in the meantime, one of the great nations (Italy), refrains from sending their best divers to AIDA competitions, due to AIDA's refusal to provide the justification on why Silvia Da Pon was repeatedly disqualified in static apnea.... The Italians stated (and rightfully so), that the 'criteria for disqualification must be made clear, and until they are made clear we will not participate in AIDA competitions.' They did not necessarily say that Silvia Da Pon should have been judged any differently from how she was; all they wanted was some sort of explanation on her three consecutive disqualifications.

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

hi

I think it is very sad for the freediving world that Italy do not compete anymore, they are probably the strongest nation in the world when in comes to freediving, and if the judges can't even explain why the heck they just disqualified someone then maybe they should seriously reconsider this rule.

cheers
 
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CEngelbrecht

Well-Known Member
Oct 31, 2002
618
97
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44
The Waldmann document

Don't know if it has been brought up already, but within AIDA there circulates a document originally authored by Frenchman Jean Waldmann. This document lists various criteria in the categories "Blackout", "Samba", "Fatigue" & "Clear", the latter two being acceptable. "Cardiac arrest" f.i. is labeled "Blackout" (!) and so forth. The purpose of the document is to act as a an aid to judges when deciding on exits

I'm enthusiastic about this document and use it as a Danish judge, because it brings at least some level of objectivity into the judgment of, in particular, samba. Personally, I think AIDA should just include Waldmann's list into the regulations and make the various distinctions official. No more subjectivity.

I have attached the document to this post, it's in .xls. It's a bit outdated as compared to present regulations, but still it gives you guys a hint.

Chris Engelbrecht, Copenhagen
 

Attachments

  • exit evaluation.xls
    17 KB · Views: 42
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Jorg

Sharkbait
Nov 15, 2001
793
96
133
Ivan,

Some italians still participate in AIDA competitions! I really did see Davide Carrera in Cyprus! ;-)
 
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icarus pacific

Human-in-training
Nov 7, 2001
2,880
212
0
61
oh...that point

Originally posted by ash
I believe that all the participants want is consistency in the way they are judged, same as in any sport.

judging whether someone is having a samba is very subjective.


And there's your problem. As with the Olympics, the issue of subjectiveness is always present to some degree. Perhaps it's more noticable in freediving owing to the smaller venue. That and judges with agendeas despite having "clear"guidelines...
 

donmoore

New Member
Aug 19, 2002
958
154
0
60
Its funny how all of sudden this is a topic I can relate too. I just got back from a great experience at the Performance Clinic with Kirk and Martin and was judged that I Samba in all of my longest static attempts. The reason was blue lips and shaking of the lower lip. This was quite a surprise to me because I came up earlier than I normally do (usually I hold past the worst contractions to where I’m still getting them, but they are not as hard).

They told us to reach out and grab the pool edge and bring ourselves to an upright position for the last of the hold. The look of my Sambas were not helped by my partner in my first two attempts who thought it would be good for him to shove my right leg under me as I was coming upright. This made me jerk to regain my balance. He is a great guy, and it was my fault for not communicating to him better.

We got to watch a little of our performances in class which resulted in Kirk changing his mind and judging my last static as legal. This tied Scott Turgeon at 4:30 for the best class static. It wasn’t a competition, but put 6 guys together doing physical tasks that are measured and what’s going to happen? :) I felt I could have done 5:00 on that attempt, but came up at 4:30 just because I had not had a legal one yet.

After much thought and watching myself on tape, I think the problem was is I get a strong blood shunt quickly. I lose circulation in my hands and feet with the slightest of coolness. My lips were blue before I even attempted the static and after being in cool water and low oxygen my body simply shut the blood and oxygen to unneeded body parts, which included the lips. This leads me to the conclusion, that if I ever compete in cold water, I am going to need to find a way to keep my lips warm.

We discussed the AIDA’s reasoning for the no samba rule in class. I totally agree with their view that its bad publicity to shows people winning with Sambas, but at the same time I see the subjectiveness of judging what is and what is not a Samba. For now, it looks like anyone who wants to compete needs to work on their acting as well as their physical capacities. That’s all right with me as long as I could keep my lips warm. Does anyone know if it would be legal to put a piece of neoprene over the lips?
don
 
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samdive

Mermaid, Musician and Marketer
Nov 12, 2002
3,221
278
173
48
I was one of the many DQd in cyprus for LOMC and whilst I'm sure I didn't do much more than shrug a shoulder, if that, I didn't challenge it as a) it didn't feel like the most comfortable dive ever and b)Herbert Nitsch told me to spend the money on beer instead...
BUT lots of other people did challenge it, some lost the money but more amazingly, some got it overturned. One of the Brits had a decision of 3 red cards out of four overturned... something is wrong there. As far as I know, Howard has said that unless AIDA change the rules by Cyprus next year to give a clear yes/no on the surface (he will have a live feed camera from the bottom to check for rope infringements) he will not have AIDA judges there. And to be honest who cares!
Someone once told me that the definition of a samba was "something that you would have most likely drowned from if it had happened to you on your own in the ocean". Not to many people drown from shrugging a shoulder, stary eyes or blue lips...

Sam
 
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